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Stevie D
Member
Ed, I respect your opinion, and I’m certainly not professing that my view is correct.
I’m just not convinced Fergie could have stopped the takeover, whether he protested or not. Rightly or wrongly as that may be. And that’s why I feel some of the criticism aimed at him is a tad harsh. However, I can appreciate your line of thought.
Just to make it clear, I in no way support the Glazers, and I don’t want to be categorised as a Glazer apologist!
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
Commenter said:
Ed, I respect your opinion, and I’m certainly not professing that my view is correct.I’m just not convinced Fergie could have stopped the takeover, whether he protested or not. Rightly or wrongly as that may be. And that’s why I feel some of the criticism aimed at him is a tad harsh. However, I can appreciate your line of thought.
Just to make it clear, I in no way support the Glazers, and I don’t want to be categorised as a Glazer apologist!
Mate... whether you believe Ferguson could have stopped the takeover or not... how can he justify his proactive support of owners, who have done nothing for the benefit of the club... not one single thing... all they do is take...
And Ferguson calls them "terrific owners"... directly in opposition to every fan that wants them out!
Explain that!
shauno
Member
Fucking depressing! Nothing short of writing to Bill Gates and asking him for £2 billion to return United to the fans I’m out of ideas. To be honest it would only take a handful of games whereby Old Trafford is empty to oust them out or at least make them change their position Their plan seems finely balanced but to think we have got them till 2017…
shauno
Member
“Explain that” I and nobody other than SAF can explain it? I can’t explain why people in my profession think its appropriate to build houses in functional floodplain knowing that whilst johnny developer walks away with his pockets full you and I pick up the tab for defending it and increased insurance costs. I don’t know why we stomach it shrug our shoulders and carry on as usual? I just don’t know anymore, on so many levels!
Stevie D – well this is one area where we don’t know anything, there’s nothing in black and white. We don’t know that Fergie could have changed anything. But he didn’t say anything at all and he’s taken the (increasingly large) Glazer coin ever since.
We can be pretty sure is that the row with Coolmore made them more malleable to a sale. They weren’t looking to sell until that all finished and then they made it very clear to everybody that £3 was their price.
king mob
Member
Thanks Sydney. Could agree more about king mob. Their art work is great. A great watch is an angry brigade documentary made in around ’73. Type “angry brigade” into you tube. The guy who posted it is called “harry walsh” or something like that. The mad thing about this group is that they pursued situationist ideology of attacking the market state -by attacks on property not people- and one of the safe houses they used was in Moss-Side, although none of them were mancs. You’ll have to give me a link to your blog to discuss further. The Telegraph article was appropriately depressing wasn’t it? The devestatingly concise and clinical post from Julian re’ the Glazer horror story thus far, even more so. Sheesh, the MEN i suppose were like a angry brigade lite group. They issued press releases stating that people who supported the Glazer takeover would be targeted as “collaborators.” Maurice Watkins got his car painted red for selling his shares to Glazer. They also stopped a reserve team game when one of the stood in the centre circle and burned an American flag.Not condoning this but they made an interesting counterpoint to Micky Crick and the other shareholder united team. By the way sorry about the lack of paragraphs in these posts. I’m typing this on my phone, which seems determined to make me write in sub-Kerouac prose.
sidney
Member
Ah, the Angry Brigade. I found the documentary, its "tony walsh". I'll give it a watch. Btw, World In Action did a special on the AB in the early 70s. You might have seen it already but I'll post the link anyway http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg1NjI2ODg4.html. It contains an insightul interview with Hilary Creek and the late Anna Mendelssohn, who comes across really well. I've been meaning to check out more of her work.
Sheesh, that MEC statement http://www.redcafe.net/f6/manchester-education-committee-statement-69323. Interesting mix of responses from United fans.
Damian Garside
Member
I was just thinking this morning how consoling the argument that we did really well to finish second would be if we weren’t Man United.
If Norwich or Fulham finished second their fans would be justified in feeling elated about it, and the pundits could commend them on doing so well on compratively limited resources.
But us: our home is Old Trafford, a ground which simply screams out that here is a place of incomparable greatness, a `Theatre of Dreams’.
Maybe the Glazers and their fans/supporters/apologists should bite the bullet and take us to a new stadium )if one can use that word), say Altrincham’s or Manchester University’s as being more fiting for our much reduced ambitions.
steggo
Member
Ed – you are quite right about supporters being blind to the truth of the Glazers but I think is deeper than that. People cannot or will not accept that the involvement of the Glazers in our club will have dire long term consequences.The Glazers are not oil rich billionaires who can afford to finance clubs like City as a whim. The Glazers are hard nosed business people who will squeeze every last pound of profit out of the club. It does not matter to them that the club is an “institution” with a great history. To them it is just another commodity to be used and abused.
I say this with a heavy heart, but perhaps we should have won nothing since 2005. That may have given the Glazers second thoughts and maybe opened the way for the Red Knights take-over.
I’m afraid for the future (why are we letting top class youngsters go?) and the Sword of Damocles hangs over the club. Unless something is done quickly I fear a terminal decline (maybe the Glazers will be aware of this scenario and invest heavily this year) but again it will be for short term gain and publicity.
DeadRevel
Member
“Mate… whether you believe Ferguson could have stopped the takeover or not… how can he justify his proactive support of owners, who have done nothing for the benefit of the club… not one single thing… all they do is take…
And Ferguson calls them “terrific owners”… directly in opposition to every fan that wants them out!
Explain that!”
Because it could do more damage to the club by publicly criticising the owners?
Of course I don’t know that, but neither do you, however much you pretend to.
What gets me is that people like you seem to be suggesting Ferguson would rather have the Glazers than owners who didn’t leach money from us. It’s laughable. Ferguson cares about his own legacy more than anything else – that means winning trophies and being considered the best. How can he do that with no funds?
In my opinion he is trying his best to protect the club’s reputation as one of the biggest in the world despite having no funds.
This means publicly stating we have great owners with plenty of cash (to make us attractive to ambitious players) and winning the title at all costs so when people look at the table all they see is United at the top, regardless of the quality of football. Obviously it didn’t work this season, but he was pretty fucking close, you can’t deny that.
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
Commenter said:
“Mate… whether you believe Ferguson could have stopped the takeover or not… how can he justify his proactive support of owners, who have done nothing for the benefit of the club… not one single thing… all they do is take…
And Ferguson calls them “terrific owners”… directly in opposition to every fan that wants them out!
Explain that!”Because it could do more damage to the club by publicly criticising the owners?
Of course I don’t know that, but neither do you, however much you pretend to.What gets me is that people like you seem to be suggesting Ferguson would rather have the Glazers than owners who didn’t leach money from us. It’s laughable. Ferguson cares about his own legacy more than anything else – that means winning trophies and being considered the best. How can he do that with no funds?
In my opinion he is trying his best to protect the club’s reputation as one of the biggest in the world despite having no funds.This means publicly stating we have great owners with plenty of cash (to make us attractive to ambitious players) and winning the title at all costs so when people look at the table all they see is United at the top, regardless of the quality of football. Obviously it didn’t work this season, but he was pretty fucking close, you can’t deny that.
What gets me... is people like you, that would rather believe anything... any fuckin fantasy, no matter how contrived and farcical, than admit the reasonable possibility, that Ferguson might actually just be a selfish fuckin cunt!...
You're right... I don't know... and neither do you.
What I "DO KNOW"... is that the Glazers are horrible fuckin financial parasites, with no concern for United, beyond how much money they can suck out of it... and Alex Ferguson publicly supports them... that is a fact!
And you can dream up all the hypothetical scenarios you want, to try and find reasonable explanations for why he's siding with the Glazers, instead of the fans... but sometimes... if it looks like shit, and smells like shit... it's because it is, in fact, SHIT"!
DeadRevel
Member
Calm down flower. And don’t post random insults based on absolutely nothing in the future… it undermines your opinion. I don’t think Ashely Young diving is a good thing, I’m closer to being a socialist than a capitalist and I believe that integrity, honesty and loyalty are some of the most important things in football and life. You just didn’t understand my comment.
“What gets me is that people like you seem to be suggesting Ferguson would rather have the Glazers than owners who didn’t leach money from us.”
You still haven’t explained that. Ferguson is not selfish, he is egotistical. And I will say it again – why would Ferguson do something which damages the club’s ability to compete at the top / “match Barca” / and silence the “noisy neighbours”, when whatever United achieve reflects directly on him?
Are you suggesting that he is happy with having no money, and the club being made to look like a joke?
Ferguson might be the biggest cunt in the world, but it’s still illogical.
If you reply, don’t insult me because you’re angry or stressed. We’re all angry and stressed about our club at this point.
Tony – I just wrote 1500 words on why you should complain. But I have to say it’s this kind of comment drives me to keep on writing. For a start, they’re called the GLAZERS. Second, you just neatly explained that Ferguson has achieved much despite working “on a shoestring”. So why should he? While fans are paying more? And the club is hemorrhaging money? And there’s still more than £440m of debt on the club?
Alex – explain why net spend is misleading? Football is a market. The market places a value on talent. Ronaldo’s talent was valued at £80m. That’s a financial representation of the talent lost to United. It’s the best way we have of measuring talent coming in and out.
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
Commenter said:
Calm down flower. And don’t post random insults based on absolutely nothing in the future… it undermines your opinion. I don’t think Ashely Young diving is a good thing, I’m closer to being a socialist than a capitalist and I believe that integrity, honesty and loyalty are some of the most important things in football and life. You just didn’t understand my comment.“What gets me is that people like you seem to be suggesting Ferguson would rather have the Glazers than owners who didn’t leach money from us.”
You still haven’t explained that. Ferguson is not selfish, he is egotistical. And I will say it again – why would Ferguson do something which damages the club’s ability to compete at the top / “match Barca” / and silence the “noisy neighbours”, when whatever United achieve reflects directly on him?
Are you suggesting that he is happy with having no money, and the club being made to look like a joke?
Ferguson might be the biggest cunt in the world, but it’s still illogical.If you reply, don’t insult me because you’re angry or stressed. We’re all angry and stressed about our club at this point.
Pat attention "flower"... because I soon get tired of debating nonsense with fools... not once have I insulted you... get that bit right at least.
If this is the core of your argument...
...
"why would Ferguson do something which damages the club’s ability to compete at the top / “match Barca” / and silence the “noisy neighbours”, when whatever United achieve reflects directly on him?
Are you suggesting that he is happy with having no money, and the club being made to look like a joke?
Ferguson might be the biggest cunt in the world, but it’s still illogical"...
...
Then I'm not sure what else can be said! You are seeing a different Manchester United than I am.
Since the Glazers took over... we have squandered half a billion quid into the ether... we've sold one of the best players we've ever had, and not seen any of that money put back into the club... we've developed an entirely new approach to transfers, and what constitutes United talent... we've gone from one of the most financially muscular clubs in football regarding our ability to pursue and acquire talent, to also rans that no longer compete for the best... all this, even though we are still the most valuable club in all of world sports!
The facts and financial figures are there for anyone who wants to look at them... under the Glazers... WE ARE NOT THE SAME MANCHESTER UNITED... everything we have achieved since they came, we have achieved IN SPITE OF, NOT BECAUSE OF... and if we are being honest, also in no small part to luck, that the other major teams have struggled in their transition.
"Are you suggesting that he is happy with having no money, and the club being made to look like a joke?"
We have NO MONEY... everyone knows it... we DO look like a JOKE!!!
But you just watch, while Ferguson drags out the same pathetic game of spin and lies, to get the restless rabble through another summer of underinvestment, until the new season begins and Old Trafford fills up with 75,000 fans willing to keep funding this charade that Ferguson calls "fantastic ownership".
Believe Ferguson if you want Mate... that's your choice... I think he's a lying, back stabbing prick... and I've had enough of him and his fuckin masters... they've got him on a diamond crusted leash, and he seems to enjoy wearing it.
This is my final year of putting my faith in Ferguson and the Glazers... I love football and United too much... if I didn't I would give a toss... but I do and I'm sick to back teeth at what's happening, and feeling totally helpless to do anything about it... I've still got lumps on my head from banging it against the wall last year... I'm not doing it any more...
Ferguson and the Glazers will either put something BACK into the club that they've taken so much out of... or I will find a more enjoyable way to spend my Saturdays...
bman
Member
I don't know why people are going on about Fergie and Gill. Fergie's a football manager, his job is to win silverware. His decision to stay on and work with the Glazers has been vindicated on the basis that he's won lots of silverware in the past few years. Gill's the chief exec of the United company. When the Glazers first came along, he vocally opposed their takeover on the basis that it wasn't the best for the company, but the shareholders didn't give a fuck and took the money. By all accounts he's done his job as chief executive well since. As a company, United is well run, with the glaring exception of the debt. But the debt's not his fault, he fulfilled his duty by pointing out that it was a bad idea in the first place.
Anyway who thinks United would be in a better place as either a football club or a company if Fergie and Gill had left in some deluded protest is fucking kidding themselves. Not that I think this makes them saints either, they're just doing their jobs. But United is better off for them doing their jobs.
Anyway, the Glazers are just parasitic assholes. Their takeover is not a moral issue in the same way that being bought by Abramovich (gangster with blood on his hands) or the Qataris (horrible human rights regime) would be. I'm more critical of people who stay on to accept dirty money than those who work in a company they think is badly run.
bman
Member
Alfonso Bedoya said:
Ferguson and the Glazers will either put something BACK into the club that they've taken so much out of... or I will find a more enjoyable way to spend my Saturdays...
I think this is going way too far with regards to Ferguson. He has put plenty back into the club: fucking European and English titles for most of the past 5 seasons. As a football manager, what more could he give to the club besides the amount of silverware he has given?
I'm not saying he's a saint, but why do people insist on making him either a saint or demonising him. He's just a bloke who's very good at running football teams. Despite what you seem to think, he doesn't get to decide who owns Manchester United as a company.
Julian
Member
Fergie is not a financial man, he’s a football manager and a hugely successful one. As far as the Glazers are concerned I think Fergie has been quite happy with them up until now because essentially they don’t interfere with the selection and running of the team. I say up until now because I think Fergie somewhat relishes the challenge of buidling a side by bringing in promising youngsters and the odd big transfer rather than having all the money in the world and being able to acquire anyone he may want. He also has bought into the idea that the transfer world has gone “insane” and that there’s no “real value” etc. He has skilfully kept United competitive in the EPL this season despite a lack of proper investment in the team. Having said that, its what has happened in Europe that is the key. United are now clearly uncompetitive in the ECL. There are probably half a dozen teams which are better than United right now. This is a huge come down for a team which won the competition and got to the final twice more in recent memory. So this is the key and Fergie must know it. He has to buy two maybe three players who are not just prospects for the future but who can have an immediate impact. It’s absolutely no good negotiating with Scholes to stay on and hoping that Giggs can keep going when you look at the European side of things. In fact with City raising the bar domestically and no dooubt the others expecting a far better season next time, you can say the same for the EPL as well. The Glazers are not long term investors. They want to sell, probably in the next five years. In the meantime they think they own a cash cow with a brilliant manager who can fashion on going success out of anything. Success in their terms means increasing income and containment of costs,first and foremost. It does not mean a stream of trophies every season. However, in the meantime Fergie wants to go out on a high: he must realise that proper investment in the team is now vital in order for him to achieve that. The Glazers will make some cash available but its unlikely to be enough for what is really required. Maybe, finally, there’s a clash looming.
DeadRevel – you old romantic. I suspect the old man may be more self-centred than you think though. He did, after all, once threatened to quit the club unless they gave him a pay rise.
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
bman said:
I think this is going way too far with regards to Ferguson. He has put plenty back into the club: fucking European and English titles for most of the past 5 seasons. As a football manager, what more could he give to the club besides the amount of silverware he has given?I'm not saying he's a saint, but why do people insist on making him either a saint or demonising him. He's just a bloke who's very good at running football teams. Despite what you seem to think, he doesn't get to decide who owns Manchester United as a company.
Bernie... the issue has NEVER been about Ferguson the "United manager"... I've said many times before that as manager of the club, I wouldn't swap him for anyone...
But what really amazes me is how people seem to be able to draw a line between Ferguson and the Glazers, as if they are two different aspects of United... they are NOT!... they should be, but they are NOT!
Ferguson has very publicly thrown in with the Glazers... he didn't have to, and anyone who says he did, "is fucking kidding themselves"... he's a 70+ year old man, with more money than he'll ever need, and a reputation of taking no shit from anyone...
He could have said nothing... run the club as best he can, and let the fans loathe the Glazers without him... but instead... he lauds them with praise, and defends their running of the club, with what everyone knows is lies.
I really don't understand how you can defend that... I really don't.
bman
Member
I'm not defending it, I just that's part of the package. If you're going to stay on and work at the club, then you've got to toe the party line in public. I don't think Fergie or Gill or anyone else has the option to "stay quiet". Journalists are obviously going to ask him about it, and it's not like he'd get away with saying "no comment" or dodging the question, they'd have a feeding frenzy.
It's not pleasant to look at, but I think you've got to recognise that if someone is going to work someplace, then they can't be seen to be pissing inside the tent.
Mind you, for all I know, Fergie actually does prefer the Glazer regime to the old regime, it's not like he got along well with the previous shareholders, and it does seem that Gill and him have a fairly free reign to do what they want -- it's only the bottom line the Glazers care about. I don't think that would make him the worst person in the world. The Glazers are bad, they suck money out of the club, but they don't sell guns to African civil wars. If Fergie decided he could work with them and still win silverware, I don't think he deserves to be abused by the supporters. Supporters have every right and good reason to protest the Glazers, I just don't think it's fair to crucify Fergie and Gill for staying on in a situation that's far from ideal, but still good enough for the club to achieve more than anybody but Barca over the past 5 years.
I'd also trust Gill more than anybody else to avoid catastrophe over the next few years. The Glazers' refinancing plans have clearly gone to shit, but the club is managing to get by without doing a Leeds, or without letting the squad go totally to shit like Chelsea's or Arsenal's.
All yous fucking dafties who think the Glazer takeover is "ok" or "fine" or even "Not the end of the fucking world"
The Glazers might be business men, but in my opinion, they've completely fucking misjudged the business model required to keep a football club at the very top of the sport. Football is a chronically cash intensive sport to finance - it requires a huge operating budget, to keep the players paid, but ALSO requires significant and regular capital outlay to continue to bring in the best available talent whenever required.
The fact is, making regular debt payments affects BOTH.
Revenue streams in football are risky. They are based on inherent uncertainty - United get further in cups, you get the double benefit of more home games and prize money. You go out of cups early, you get a double hit. Because of that, if you're being frugal / prudent, you can't bet you make it to the Champions League semi every year, etc. Or, in the case of United at present, because the club has debt putting a strain on cash, it is risky to both increase operating costs and make capital outlays because you can't guarantee the success to ensure you make a profit.
Hence, the investment approach - buy the absolute minimum talent, at the lowest price possible, for the lowest wages possible, in order to keep the club reaching a reasonable position in the league, Champions League, FA and League Cups, to maintain revenue streams to maintain the brand.
NOTE - that doesn't necessarily mean WINNING anything anymore. Look at those daft cunts who have turned up week in, week out at Klanfield and the daft Barcodes. They fill their grounds every week to see that shower of shit (Barcodes less shit of late). The point is - there's still very little success (Klanfield this season excepted, cup team that they are).
My point is - the Glazers aren't about to start shipping a giant fucking wadge of cash out of the club any time soon. They want to have to reinvest the bare minimum of cash required to keep the club (a) in the Champions League (b) therefore in the top four in the league (c) reaching late enough rounds in cups to get more home games.
NOTHING. ELSE.
Not winning. Not playing the best football. Not matching Barcelona, Real Madrid, of late the Bitters.
NOTHING. ELSE.
That isn't acceptable to the fans, but we still get 76,000 every week. We still will get 76,000 every week. And unless those parasitic bellends fuck right off, and soon, we'll be in the same category as those deluded mongs in Klanfield and those bellend Barcode cunts.
The Glazers need outing ASAP
bman
Member
Alfonso Bedoya said:
That entire post simply depresses me... I give up... another one who just refuses to see Ferguson in any light, other than saintly.
That's the opposite of what I was saying, but fuck it anyway, I give up too. It's impossible to discuss this with people who just want to take one extreme position or another.
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
"I'm not defending it, I just that's part of the package."
Bollocks!
Your entire post was a defense of Ferguson, or a rationalizing of his "precarious" position.
Poor Alex Ferguson... having to walk this fine line between corporate politics and personal ambition, without alienating his beloved fans.
Horseshit Bernie!
This is Alex Ferguson ffs... a 70 year old, railroad spike, who's never taken a backward step in his life... and you're trying to portray him as an office daisy, trying not to upset his superiors.
The Glazers are sucking the very life out of United... even YOU agree with that... and Ferguson not only publicly supports them for it... but also actively participates in the lies and spin to manipulate the fans.
Now... if you disagree with that, then fine... I don't know what else to say, but fine... but if you don't disagree with that, then for fuck sake, quit trying to rationalize it... because you can't.
Ferguson has completely and willingly climbed into bed with the Glazers... and only he truly knows why, but it makes the bile rise in my throat...
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