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dozer
Member
Commenter said:
Vidic is our linchpin and most consistent performer – without him we’re vulnerable at the back. We simply don’t have the quality in other positions to make up for his absence.
Smalling is, in my opinion, already an exceptional defender. I kept saying it, he should be easily above Jones in preference.
Jones is a top talent but he needs time. Smalling already is a top player. That's the difference.
Damian Garside
Member
The big queswtion for us United fans is what are we prepared to accept and willing to settle for: runners up, 2nd, 3rd, a narrow or even controversial “honourable” defeat at the Eithad on the weekend?
When we lost to Barca for the 2nd time in the CL final Fergie knew what he would have to do to start the process of getting United up to that level, yet he shirked away from doing anything that would move us in that direction. Maybe he decided that nothing he could do at United could ever bring the team up to that level: that the sense of impossibility corroded hat was left of the old champion and left us with this creature of inconsistencies and contradictions, and with a monumental stubborness and arrogance that is surely a compensation for the sense of frustration and failure that he has felt so deeply since the last Barca final fiasco,
I think the man can’t imagine himself as a winner now and so he has lost the energy and drive that he had and that this negativity has spread to the team,
If we lose to City at the Eithad then it will really be over for us (when last 3 defeats in a row?). We need to beat City big time– to play out of our skins. Who would put money on that happening? If Fergie can accept us playing second fiddle to City, then I think he is totally out of touch with what the fans feel (and fear above all else).
shauno
Member
Gonna get arse raped by City on Sunday. No spine. No central midfield and no centre back partnership and around that you have players playing out of position.
You can have all the formations tactics etc you want your first priority is getting your spine right. We have no depth in our squad to ensure that we can almost always during times of injury play competent players in their preferred positions and keep a strong spine.
You can’t blame Nani, Rooney and Ferdinand they can’t carry that team in that formation. You could have swapped Rooney for Messi and Nani for Ronaldo and we still would have come up short. We needed more consistency throughout the team, it just doesn’t exist in our squad. Jones isn’t strong enough yet for centre back and doesn’t have the football sense that Smalling has. Carrick is a good player but he should have gone to Italy he would have been a legend in Serie A. But here he gets out muscled and doesn’t break down hard working defences.
If anybody ever needed anymore evidence that the Glazers are fucking us then here it is. It may not be as catastrophic as the headlines or ABU’s would have wanted. I never thought it would. But it will be a gradual decline and particularly noticeable when we pick up injuries. We need players but can’t afford them. Our net spend is practically fuck all. I think Stoke have a higher net spend.
We should be thankful we are only 3 points off the top.
Violent Banana
Member
£8.27 million – thats our net spend under the Glazers if we start at the 05/06 season.
If we don’t include the 09/10 season (when we lost Ronaldo), it’s £20.40 million.
That’s still smaller than the average net spend of £22.5 million beginning from 01/02 season to 04/05.
dozer
Member
Our key players years ago were Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Vidic, Evra, Hargreaves (when fit) Scholes, Giggs, Ferdinand and Van der Sar.
With the exception of Nani (he's key now) and Rooney, the others are injured or have turned average.
Just 2 key players now speaks for itself and including Vidic who's injured, and Evra who's on the wane somewhat all our important players have been bought 5+ years ago.
We don't have a single new player in the last 5 YEARS who's cemented his position as a top player in our team. Fergie's recent transfers/youth have done pretty well, but pretty well is well... shit.
han
Member
SAF's post match interview was surreal
the fight has gone from him
he just didn't say it like it was
awful defending for their goals - all 3
to concede a free kick for their 2nd was criminal
and the OG was a total fuck up
he really is devoid of the spirit that he has had for the past 35 years
Herbie Simms
Member
I listened to the comments made by SAF on BBC after the game and its amazing how he stayed so cool. He is not going to buy any players because he claims he has a strong squad with plenty of experience. If Giggs is going to continue on playing at 38 years old, than SAF will remain as manager until he is at least 100 years old. If we do not win anything this season, SAF will stay on another season until he can win the title or the champions league and we will have to put up with another season with the same bullshit midfield and defence. Don’t be surprised if Rooney goes to Real Madrid or Man.City. What the team needs is a player with some spark, a TEVEZ or a Frank Ribery. Not necessarily these players but energetic, skillful players that can motivate and control the midfield and tempo of play.
Geno
Member
Can’t argue with much of what’s already been said. The root of our problems is the Glazers and our finances. The squad’s not strong or deep enough, we all know it, and I’ll bet if you’d given Fergie 100m net to spend on new players in terms of transfer fees and wages, the squad would look quite different. But we are where we are, until and unless the Glazers decide to sell.
Commenter said:
Can’t argue with much of what’s already been said. The root of our problems is the Glazers and our finances. The squad’s not strong or deep enough, we all know it, and I’ll bet if you’d given Fergie 100m net to spend on new players in terms of transfer fees and wages, the squad would look quite different. But we are where we are, until and unless the Glazers decide to sell.
geno, i'm not sure that is true, Fergie has his own preconceptions of value - 50m Torress, 30m Carrol, hell 30m on Berbs? i can't see Fergie ever spending more than 35m again on principle - same as Wenger, the old dinosaurs won't do that.
another thing is what if the glazers float united again or sell to another private equity group using debt to finance united. that is not the solution either. would you like a person like ambromovich forcing players like torres and shevchenko on the manager? you are almost better off with a rich sheik who knows fuck all about football but pumps in the cash - but of course united fans would moan about being a play thing too - we are the first to criticise our model but look at the other models.
unless you get contribiutions or a model where you have fan ownership, business involvement in football is something fans will need to accept, rightly or wrongly - and for better or for worse.
with a bit of luck all the subsidies that madreeeeeeeed and barca have been gettting frm their state will bankrupt them. spain is utterly wrecked - theior economy is the next greece - and i am sure that the likes of madreeeed will need to pay back their subsidies.
Bill
Member
If SAF said we are going to buy the price will go up, so he could be saying it as a bargaining tool. The thing is 20 million doesn’t guarantee quality these days. 3 bench players cost about that sum each in the summer.
What we are missing are leaders. Too many passive players, this is especially obvious with no Vidic. Personally I’d put Rooney and Jones in midfield so they can use their energy to effect the key battle in the game. There was no passion and we got bullied last night, Jones and Rooney won’t stand for any of that.
There are too many players coasting, knowing they won’t be sold or dropped. I’d get Morrison in there as he is dynamic and key to impress. For next season Tunnicliffe needs to be in the squad pushing the older players. Hes a battler, and it says a lot when the likes of G Nev speak highly of him. He reminds me of a young Nicky Butt. More battlers needed, it’s football not crown green bowls!
shauno
Member
What you on? We haven’t been able to match Barca or even attempt it for the simple fact that we have not been able to match other teams in the transfer market. It’s that simple. All those City players would have come to United if we could have afforded them. Silva, Nasri, Aguero to name a few. Actually they would have come had been able to get close in terms of financial incentive. But we couldn’t thats the reason we are in this mess.
kramer
Member
don't really know what to make of that performance. i thought the lineup was good.
demba ba was fucking amazing - outbattled our CB pairing. carrick and giggs just couldn't get into the game. both wingers and strikers looked out of form.
what really pissed me off was the lack of movement. there were almost no options everytime one of our players was on the ball, no sense of urgency - everyone waiting for someone else to take the initiative.
dunno how things are going to turn around, i expect city to massacre us, not sure i want to watch the game. our performances right now are a bit sad.
Geno
Member
Dannii, you’re probably right about Fergie’s concept of value, although given that he used to set British transfer records when there was more money in the kitty, I don’t know if I’m completely convinced.
I’m absolutely not with you on “the Glazers aren’t the worst” (hope that’s not an unfair characterisation of your argument) as there seem to be plenty of rich owners who don’t interfere in team operations. Take Joe Lewis at Spurs, Peter Coates at Stoke and Eddie Davies at Bolton – don’t think Arry, Pulis or Coyle have any complaints on that score.
Take Peter Coates – he is far from the richest man in Britain, but he manages to put money INTO Stoke as opposed to taking money out. Man Utd is an absolute cashcow and we don’t need a Russian oligarch or an Arab sheik, but someone who doesn’t suck money OUT of the club would be nice.
Yeah, look, could be worse – we could be saddled with the Venkys. (Whose team beat us on the weekend 
… )
On your 3rd para, I have no problem with Utd being owned by a rich businessman, as long as it’s the right rich businessman. I’m not a proponent of fan ownership for a club as big and complex at Utd…I’m a MUST member now but only until the Glazers go and assuming the next lot are better I won’t be renewing my membership.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens to RM and Barca. 18 months ago, when things were looking dicey in Europe but before it really looked like going tits up, I was reading an article in the FT where the author (think it was John Gapper) was arguing that RM’s 3 main external bank lenders (Santander, who own Abbey obviously, and 2 others who I can’t recall) were fools to lend money to RM as the loans were effectively unrecallable. His argument was that it didn’t matter what the loan contracts said, if the 3 banks called in the loans and put RM into financial strife, Generalissimo Fiorentino Perez would immediately call on any RM supporter who had a bank a/c with any of those banks to withdraw their funds immediately. RM has enough fans that if enough of them took him seriously, it would f*ck the banks.
(BTW I know King Eric tried something similar in France in 2010 with no impact whatsoever, but I would suggest there’s a couple of differences:
A. I don’t actually think King Eric’s that big in France, unlike amongst Man Utd fans; and
B. He was calling for fans to stick the cash under their mattresses – never going to happen. Perez would just get RM fans to move the money to another bank – not that hard if you’re motivated enough.)
Anyway, the point of raising this is that I wonder whether any government in Spain would have the balls to piss off RM and Barca by asking for repayment. I could see the subsidies being cut but not sure about getting the cash back – not if the ruling party wants to win the next election.
triggs
Member
Rooney was shocking. Gave the ball away more than any other player.
Park was a joke, waste of a shirt.
Berba should have stayed on as he's the only one who looks like he knows where the goal is.
Jones should stay in midfield.
Tiote would be a good signing.
Can't see us winning the title without Vidic.
denton davey
Member
Han @ 11:17: “3 points behind and 11 now goal difference”
Chicken Little anyone ? Yep, the sky is falling down.
The desperate sense of doom in these comments – not just this one – is amazing. IF TheLads don’t win every match by three or four goals then the sky is falling down and the end of the world is nigh.
And, of course, it’s not as if SAF’s teams haven’t lost games in the past – or reeled in bigger leads than that.
TheLads’ inconsistency is galling and frustrating. So what ? Is the end of the world really nigh ?
Commenter said:
Dannii, you’re probably right about Fergie’s concept of value, although given that he used to set British transfer records when there was more money in the kitty, I don’t know if I’m completely convinced.I’m absolutely not with you on “the Glazers aren’t the worst” (hope that’s not an unfair characterisation of your argument) as there seem to be plenty of rich owners who don’t interfere in team operations. Take Joe Lewis at Spurs, Peter Coates at Stoke and Eddie Davies at Bolton – don’t think Arry, Pulis or Coyle have any complaints on that score.
Take Peter Coates – he is far from the richest man in Britain, but he manages to put money INTO Stoke as opposed to taking money out. Man Utd is an absolute cashcow and we don’t need a Russian oligarch or an Arab sheik, but someone who doesn’t suck money OUT of the club would be nice.
Yeah, look, could be worse – we could be saddled with the Venkys. (Whose team beat us on the weekend
On your 3rd para, I have no problem with Utd being owned by a rich businessman, as long as it’s the right rich businessman. I’m not a proponent of fan ownership for a club as big and complex at Utd…I’m a MUST member now but only until the Glazers go and assuming the next lot are better I won’t be renewing my membership.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens to RM and Barca. 18 months ago, when things were looking dicey in Europe but before it really looked like going tits up, I was reading an article in the FT where the author (think it was John Gapper) was arguing that RM’s 3 main external bank lenders (Santander, who own Abbey obviously, and 2 others who I can’t recall) were fools to lend money to RM as the loans were effectively unrecallable. His argument was that it didn’t matter what the loan contracts said, if the 3 banks called in the loans and put RM into financial strife, Generalissimo Fiorentino Perez would immediately call on any RM supporter who had a bank a/c with any of those banks to withdraw their funds immediately. RM has enough fans that if enough of them took him seriously, it would f*ck the banks.
(BTW I know King Eric tried something similar in France in 2010 with no impact whatsoever, but I would suggest there’s a couple of differences:
A. I don’t actually think King Eric’s that big in France, unlike amongst Man Utd fans; and
B. He was calling for fans to stick the cash under their mattresses – never going to happen. Perez would just get RM fans to move the money to another bank – not that hard if you’re motivated enough.)
Anyway, the point of raising this is that I wonder whether any government in Spain would have the balls to piss off RM and Barca by asking for repayment. I could see the subsidies being cut but not sure about getting the cash back – not if the ruling party wants to win the next election.
geno - thanks, no, I'm not in any way advocating or supporting the LBO which I do believe is harmful to the club. what I am saying is that the troubles are not simply a matter of the LBO - and that it's effect on our performance is overstated. agree that we shld not be grateful per se that the glazers don't interfere. i just cannot see us being replaced by anything else other than rich oligarch or another LBO. the ipo will be a classic dividend strip trade - and if fergie does not want to spend, glazers will gobble it up.
not sure about spain, they are so weak and will get weaker. we will get a two stage europe - with the north doing well and the south being utterly ruined. there will be civil unrest i'm sure of it. the subsidies will stop but i agree that it that chances of getting the cash back is close to zero.
Damian Garside
Member
The point is not that we lost — but how we lost, and how we are going to reel in these points when we have no form to speak of, have lost our key defender and heart of the team (Vidic) and have no creative flair whatsoever. How do we suddenly discover this. City have had their blip: they dropped five points in two games, but are ahead again and have lots of options to try if things go a bit wrong for them. But they are playing well at the moment and looking very strong. We could have been ahead of them in the new year and had a morale boost — but now we look liuke a team of lost souls and they look the real deal (of all the big teams, they have beaten us, Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal (two of these games away) and only lost to Chelsea away. That’s the form of champions.
The question is: would seeing City take the Premier Leacue title and maybe the Carling of FA Cup as well be seen as somethign that doesn’t touch us really, or will it be seen as `the end of the world’. And how will Fergie cope with such a thing?
Damian Garside
Member
This is part of it, but not the whole story. You mention Aguero — perhaps the most dangerous forward in the PL today — and when on song, almost unplayable. If we had Aguero up front with Rooney then our forward line would have been really deadly. But the issue — as put to the fans — is not that there was no money to buy quality players but that there were (a) no quality players at a price or (b) no quality players period, Fergie’s `no value in the market’ would shift and slide from one meaning to the other. Well this means in the case of Aguero that he was in terms of (a) overpriced and in terms of (b) not up to scratch in terms of Fergie’s player evaluation. But the sliping ans sliding of what the `market’ idea was supposed to mean, meant that Aguero was both (a) and (b): overpriced and not up to scratch. now, if fergie thinks Aguero is not a good player — then he is quite simply, fucked in the head. If he thinks he is not worth the money: then we are talking about money for a player who can transform a side. Which forward line would give defenders more to fear: Aguero and Rooney or Balotelli and Dzeko? We certainly know that Premier League defences fear a Balotelli/Aguero forward line much more than they do whetever we can put on the field currently.
People are saying something is missing and I think it is the will to win: no new top-drawer players has meant no new energies coming into the team to reviatlize things, but there is something that seems to have corroded the players we have: they are losing form, getting crocked, losing the old fire and commitment. What was interesting for me was that Fergie when he spoke of 3 more years. didn’t speak of a desire to win the CL again (unless I missed it). So he would appear to want to stay on for 3 years, just because he is the guy who knows the ropes. This is hardly inspirational.
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