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chocolatteballs
Member
Commenter said:
Okay, well we didn’t perform too well in Europe but let’s take our two worst results. The defeat to Basel and the home defeat to Ajax. Carrick didn’t play in either.He was our best player in the 3-3 draw with Basel although the whole team had a very complacent night, he still was our best player and wasn’t “bad”.
And even if his performances against Bilbao, (the first he din’t start in) weren’t that good, they weren’t as bad as some of the others.
Even still I don’t know what your point is. You go on as if he is directly to blame. Do you also think the rest of the players aren’t good enough?
He may have got battered against Barca, LIKE EVERY SINGLE PLAYER WHO FACES THEM, JESUS CHRIST. But in both finals he wasn’t our worst midfielder, in fact he was the best (starter) in both finals, but of course, he takes the blame.
Where would he compare to Vieira and Scholes? Ugh where does anyone compare to those two? These are two of the greatest ever Premier League players and because someone doesn’t match up he’s shit, get real. I swear to god, the arguemnts against Carrick are truly pathetic and I can tell you nobody says that shit for other players, just Carrick and Evans, another fantastic performer this season.
In an arguement, the truth is generally somewhere in between both sides. And in Carrick’s case, those who slate him are much more in the wrong and his supporters are far closer to the truth. I also notice the majority of his haters have terrible arguements that look as though are written by a 13-year-old. And his supporters make actual sense an show a fairly acute understanding of the game most of the time.
I don’t know why I bother. He can’t win.
He’s a good passer = He only passes backwards
Here’s evidence that he doesn’t = Oh they’re easy passes
Most passes are easy = Oh it was shit oppositionThere’s always an excuse and it’s nearly always wrong and to be honest, nearly always frivolous bullcrap.
Sorry been away but David did you just say he was our best midfielder in both Finals against Barcelona?
Ah hear , sure he didn't find a United player once in either game and I have both of them taped so
I'm just not accepting that unless you think Our team should play like Tranmere Rovers.
What's my point? Read the first line of my first post in this thread Dave that's actually what my point is , and as Alf mentioned in his post Midfield is the area that we have needed to address for a long time.
And , your points relate to this season's European campaign , mine stretch back over a few years .Even when we beat Chelsea on Penos in Moscow and we had Ronaldo.
Everyone here was shocked we even got to last year's final myself included (check out all the threads here from Feb to May 2011). We almost got their by default just as we are currently leading the league .
Our best player against Basel? Are you actually Michael Carrick ?!!!
We have been Carrying Carrick for years in Europe against teams we should be bossing . Remember Carrick and Fletcher playing together when Hargreves and Scholes were out? Guess which one contributed more?
Na not having that mate .
The poorest premier Leauge as long as I can remember this year as well and city imploding at the wrong time.
Getting back to good football that starts with (yes you guessed it) 'Our Midfield' and replacing Carrick , Anderson and other mediocrity while we still have Rooney.Should have been done this Summer.
Your point about the truth being somewhere in between... no it isn't.We need two world Class midfielders if we want to move forward and stop embarrassing ourselves on the world stage.
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
I'd be interested to see how many of Carricks new found advocates, made these same arguments a couple years ago, when it was openly accepted that he was shite.
Probably someone elses fault... wrong partner and all that nonsense.
Alfonso - I've always supported Carrick, whilst also accepting his form hasn't been great for a couple of seasons.
Chocolateballs - great wall of text and rhetoric - but all I read is "I believe he sucks, and this is a load of text saying he sucks" without actually stating what it is you believe he does, or doesn't do, that means he sucks. Which teams haven't we "bossed"? Define "Bossing"? I don't really understand what you mean. It's just subjective claptrap. It doesn't provide any objective measurement to assess a player, or system, against.
And, I think I quite clearly addressed your points on our record over the last three - five seasons in Europe. It's actually quite good. Or are we just ignoring results now, and instead judging players on something less tangible? I don't understand any of the points you're making.
But hey, maybe I am blinkered and stupid, and spouting a load of "he's crap" sure does make a great point.
And, once again - who are these "World Class" midfielders everyone is selling these days, and where are we going to get them (especially given the current constraints of Glazernomics?)? Or have you fired up Football Manager and are busy popping Xavi next to Schweinsteiger in United's midfield as an impotent rage fuelled one man protest against Carrick?
I think it is perfectly acceptable to play 4 - 4 - 2 in the league (Sorry Cal but it is), because it is easy enough to dominate 12 to 15 out of 20 of the current Premier league sides by smothering them with possession, and having enough flair / attacking nouse up front to comfortably get the points we need to compete in the league. The remaining teams in England - the better sides - along with the top sides in Europe require a different approach. And that's where we need to change personnel.
My view is we need to acquire an athletic midfield player with good dribbling and short range distribution skills - similar to Javi Martinez / Cheik Tiote / Ramires - to compliment Carrick and Cleverley in our midfield. We then sign a more creative player - someone like Eden Hazard, Gaitan, etc - to play as a floating creative midfielder, and two strikers - Rooney and Welbeck - who can alternate playing in the channels, dropping deep to receive the ball and join up play, or as a central target man / bursting into the box. The intention is to have pace and movement, so you can pop a ball long, or you can break down teams with clever movement. This also allows Valencia to come in wide right and play a more traditional 4 - 5 - 1 / 4 - 3 - 3 system, allowing Rooney to play a pure "number 9" style role.
We continue to send the full backs forward to provide width, and alternate that. Carrick remains in a similar role as to now, dropping deeper and covering for one of Evra or Raphael as they go forward.
This gives us movement, pace and options, and also the kind of drive from midfield we do not possess now, which I think everyone can acknowledge - a powerful, athletic driver from midfield, who can bring the ball out from midfield into the attacking third, distribute accurately and quickly, and attack the penalty area.
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
Ben... you talk about others making redundant arguments... but keep repeating this... "who are these "World Class" midfielders everyone is selling these days"... as our excuse for doing nothing.
Since we bought Carrick there have been countless midfielders changing teams... Milner, Silva, Toure, Wishere, Arteta, Chamberlain, Benayoun, Bale, Huddlestone, Modric, van der Vaart, Ben Arfa, Tiote, Ramirez, Meireles, Mata, Sessegnon... even Charlie Adam, who Cal wanted us to sign... and that's just from a few teams in England... never mind the talent in Italy, Spain or Germany...
Now granted some of those names would have chased the money, some would have personal preferences, and some just aren't an improvement... but that doesn't explain why we never even seemed to be shopping... with the various ridiculous versions of "no value" trotted out... there has been, and still is plenty of crackin talent out there... Fergie just wasn't interested... that doesn't make Carrick a rubbish player... but I think it takes care of your, where's the alternatives, argument.
Stevie D
Member
Carrick’s only problem is that he is not Paul Scholes or Roy Keane!! We’ve had the pleasure of having the best two midfielders (by some distance) in Keane and Scholes in Premier League history in our side for the past 20 years. Two of the best players to ever play for United, I think it’s fair to say.
While Carrick does a pretty solid job in midfield, he will never set the world alight, like Scholes or Keane did for so long. It’s just not his game. But unfortunately for Carrick, he will always be compared to his predecessors. Sucks for him!
For me personally, Carrick is a bit of a conundrum. He is a very good player…..but I just don’t get that excited about him. His game is a bit slow, he doesn’t score many goals (despite having a great right foot), he’s not that creative, he can be cumbersome on the ball and get caught in possession….especially when under pressure.
However, someone asked earlier to name 3 realistic signings who would be better than Carrick…..but to be honest, I can’t! (excluding the Barca midfield, as obviously they are not realistic signings!)
chocolatteballs
Member
Ben , I feel Alf has amply explained the who are these other midfielders question but if you want me to wade in I gladly will.
Now I did explain what Carrick sucks at very specifically in my first post but I will give you an example that dosn't even need words in a moment so as to leave you in no doubt.
Yes Ben it is a results business and if that is what matters to you ultimately why even talk about football or the beautifull game at all.Yes I admit the manner in which we play is more important to me personally than the result as it's why I originally supported the club. And your right, in the last few years our results in Europe as a whole have not been bad .
The manner of the defeats in those finals will (for me ) will always eclipse the fact that we actually got there playing our unique brand of bore me to death football,and, it matters to anyone watching as it showed how far behind we have fallen and why I think Carrick especially is the biggest reason.
Now to the example.
Last year's Cl fina,l 80 odd minutes on the clock and we( like two years before ) are getting taught how to play football all over again.
A certain short arsed Ginger comes on to make his last ever appearance for the club ( or so we thought). What happened then Ben ? You saw it , I saw it we all saw it .Never in the history of football has there been an example so clear cut of what was wrong with our team, ...what was wrong with our midfield.
Scholes past it to red shirts, he then moved (yes fucking moved!) and he created triangles , we even created a chance, the players pepped up, we held the fucking ball for a whole 3 mins and we actually looked like a team.The Barca fans wondered why he didn't start and the United fans wondered how we'd replace him.
Where was Carrick for the previous 80 mins Ben?
What was he doing?
If one world class midfielder can make us look so good in just ten mins and the other make us look like schoolboys for 80 mins dosn't that tell you something?You saw what we were with Carrick in midfield and you saw what we looked like with Scholes.
Why is he in our team ? Tell me Ben what Carrick was doing for that match please someone.
Would it be cause he's not THAT type of player.
Damm fucking right he's not. Some of you need to seriously cop on.
David
Member
2009 final we started with Giggs and Anderson, and surely I don’t need to tell you that those two, even though Giggs has had a wonderful career showing incredible longevity, are the most wasteful Utd midfilders. They give the ball away more often than Carrick and obviously Scholes. I’m sure the stats would show this if I had access to them, they usually do.
Carrick and the entire midfield was outclassed nevertheless and Giggs and Anderson both got subbed, Anderson in particular was woeful. Don’t even dare suggest Carrick was worse.
2011 final we started with Giggs and Park alongside Carrick. Park was without doubt the worst player on the pitch and Giggs, again, wasteful. Carrick in those 80 mins he was on helped us keep Barca at bay as they launched wave after wave of attack. You do realise two of those goals were long range efforts, goals out of nothing? He also played a part in the move leading up to the goal, as did Giggs.
As for my points just regading this seasons European campaign. well that’s pure nonsense as all th other campaigns make an even stronger case for Carrick. You all too conveiniently say the rest of the team carried him. Well that sums up what I’m saying in that he can’t win, that’s the other reason I left out. Have you forgotten him absolutely “bossing” Mourinho’s Inter against brilliant players like Cambiasso, who is the kind of player I’m sure people would readily compare to Carrick to highlight his apparent ineptness.
Good performance = Oh the team carried him
Bad performance = His fault and his fault alone
Pathetic. Get your head out of the sand.
David
Member
And poorest Premier League?!
I’m sorry, but you are an absolute moron. Look at the points tally of both Manchester clubs. Both had the best starts the Premier League had EVER seen and City have raised the bar compared to other seasons and we’ve seen them, and raised them.
My word, talk about looking at English clubs’ European performances and jumping to conclusions!
Pure nonsense. This has been an unusully bad year for Utd in Europe, and City too. You can’t seriously suggest that that means the league is in decline. 10 years ago one English club in the semi-finals was as good as it got.
squigs
Member
Commenter said:
And poorest Premier League?!I’m sorry, but you are an absolute moron. Look at the points tally of both Manchester clubs. Both had the best starts the Premier League had EVER seen and City have raised the bar compared to other seasons and we’ve seen them, and raised them.
My word, talk about looking at English clubs’ European performances and jumping to conclusions!
Pure nonsense. This has been an unusully bad year for Utd in Europe, and City too. You can’t seriously suggest that that means the league is in decline. 10 years ago one English club in the semi-finals was as good as it got.
That this United has only dropped 20 points this season is a sign how bad the league is. A team which is
1 Missing it's captain
2 Playing a 21 year old in goals
3 Playing near half a dozen players who in the long are not good enough.
4.Bringing back a retired player and seeing him dominate.
5.Rooney on for his best goalscoring season yet has been average by his standards.
Squigs behave yourself!!!
how old was Cassillas when he won his first Champions League title? In '98 we ran Arsenal very close without the use of Roy Keane for long periods. We miss Rio Ferdinand more than we will ever miss Vidic and many know it.
I do not agree that Scholes 'dominates' matches as much as you people keep on saying. I want to see Scholes play one match without Carrick alongside him and let us see what will happen.
Who are these "half a dozen players not good enough"? Welbeck is good enough. So is Jonny Evans. And Rafael. And Smalling. And Jones. And Valencia. And Nani. Young has been very good in the PL since his days at Watford. Park hardly gets a game these days. So, seriously, what exactly is wrong with our team in terms of personnel? I'll answer that myself.
I will sooner have Giggs and Scholes quit end of this season and not be available for selection again. I will also prefer our manager to put an end to this rubbish of playing a two man central midfield. Let Jones run around there alongside Carrick and one other. Rooney up top with any two wide of him. Speaking of Rooney, I have a feeling he will be off this summer. His body language is all bad.
chocolatteballs
Member
Oh god you are a moron David.
park and giggs arnt central midfielders , Is there name on this thread?
and the post after that just shows how ignorant you are .I suppose its topping the rich list 2012 means we should be lucky to win a game in Europe at all?
And saying you don't think Carrick gave the ball away 'as' much as giggs just proves my point.
Why haven't you answered my question about Carrick in that game ?where was he David?
Also take the games Porto , Benfica , fucking Lille home and away over 4 years .Someone tell me w where was he in these games? Alot of these 4-5-1
Why we get dominated in Midfield? What does he really do
Is it not easier for you guys to write a paragraph about what he dosn't or isn't able to do.You guys will find answers that way ,won't even have to read.
David you have proved time and time again how 'not to' make excuses and for you to tell anyone to get their head out of the sand sums this thread up.
squigs
Member
Calvino said:
Squigs behave yourself!!!
how old was Cassillas when he won his first Champions League title? In '98 we ran Arsenal very close without the use of Roy Keane for long periods. We miss Rio Ferdinand more than we will ever miss Vidic and many know it.I do not agree that Scholes 'dominates' matches as much as you people keep on saying. I want to see Scholes play one match without Carrick alongside him and let us see what will happen.
Who are these "half a dozen players not good enough"? Welbeck is good enough. So is Jonny Evans. And Rafael. And Smalling. And Jones. And Valencia. And Nani. Young has been very good in the PL since his days at Watford. Park hardly gets a game these days. So, seriously, what exactly is wrong with our team in terms of personnel? I'll answer that myself.
I will sooner have Giggs and Scholes quit end of this season and not be available for selection again. I will also prefer our manager to put an end to this rubbish of playing a two man central midfield. Let Jones run around there alongside Carrick and one other. Rooney up top with any two wide of him. Speaking of Rooney, I have a feeling he will be off this summer. His body language is all bad.
Re: 98 we threw a league away,
1 Casillas was exceptionally young, De Gea is an exceptional talent who will be between the sticks for a decade, but I do feel the mistakes he has made (West Brom) would have been punished much more in a tougher league. Mistakes against the likes of Basel were punished and we were out of Europe early.
2 We see Michael Carrick play a game without Scholes and we get beaten by Wigan.
3 Welbeck not good enough, Evans not good enough, Hernandez really struggled this season, Rafael and Fabio haven't pushed on at all. Phil Jones still learning his trade and positionally very poor. Btw, I really rate Smalling. Most teams would not be challenging for a league title with so many mediocre/transition players.
4 Performance wise; Nani has been hot and cold, Evra has been ordinary. Young has been injured for a long period as has Valencia. In other years United would have been blown away, 2008 been a prime example.
5 I think Rooney will be off as well, if we could reinvest the money well, I would take the cash.
Squigs,
into the '98 run-in we were knackered and running on empty while Arsenal were on a roll. We were then later decimated by injuries to the back line and midfield as the Gunners had their best players fit. That was the season that made the manager decided it was time for rotation and a bigger squad.
We lost to Wigan again because the manager kept a 2 man central midfield while the home side had four men centrally!!!!
Rafael is top class. He is going to be a great. Fabio is unlucky and really needs to leave United. Jones has to cement a proper position preferably as a holding midfielder or centre-back. Welbeck is well good enough. He has all the physical attributes we need for a frontman.
If we can swap Rooney - if he really wants to go - for a proper no 10 then we shall be fine.
squigs
Member
Calvino said:
Squigs,
into the '98 run-in we were knackered and running on empty while Arsenal were on a roll. We were then later decimated by injuries to the back line and midfield as the Gunners had their best players fit. That was the season that made the manager decided it was time for rotation and a bigger squad.We lost to Wigan again because the manager kept a 2 man central midfield while the home side had four men centrally!!!!
Rafael is top class. He is going to be a great. Fabio is unlucky and really needs to leave United. Jones has to cement a proper position preferably as a holding midfielder or centre-back. Welbeck is well good enough. He has all the physical attributes we need for a frontman.
If we can swap Rooney - if he really wants to go - for a proper no 10 then we shall be fine.
Your not disagreeing with me, we fell away and threw it away down to injuries. We certainly were a knackered team but had an 11 point lead in March. I also remember John Curtis been the great white hope and he really fell off the radar. Keane was a huge loss and the loss of Keane was instrumental.
Rafael, I think it's still an enigma. He is potentially really good but the positioning sense has still not sorted itself out.
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
squigs said:
Re: 98 we threw a league away,1 Casillas was exceptionally young, De Gea is an exceptional talent who will be between the sticks for a decade, but I do feel the mistakes he has made (West Brom) would have been punished much more in a tougher league. Mistakes against the likes of Basel were punished and we were out of Europe early.
2 We see Michael Carrick play a game without Scholes and we get beaten by Wigan.
3 Welbeck not good enough, Evans not good enough, Hernandez really struggled this season, Rafael and Fabio haven't pushed on at all. Phil Jones still learning his trade and positionally very poor. Btw, I really rate Smalling. Most teams would not be challenging for a league title with so many mediocre/transition players.
4 Performance wise; Nani has been hot and cold, Evra has been ordinary. Young has been injured for a long period as has Valencia. In other years United would have been blown away, 2008 been a prime example.
5 I think Rooney will be off as well, if we could reinvest the money well, I would take the cash.
Don't know why you're complaining about Evans... he looked the business, and then lost some confidence, and suffered for a couple years... but I think he's had an outstanding season... he's still got plenty to learn but he's young, and I think him, Smalling, and De Gea are going to be looking after our defense for years.
And Rooney... you talk about selling him and reinvesting the money as if that could be reasonably expected... come on Mate... that wouldn't happen and you know it... there are a few key areas that need new/class talent... if we sold Rooney, there is no way we would replace him with anything like similar quality.
squigs
Member
Alfonso Bedoya said:
Don't know why you're complaining about Evans... he looked the business, and then lost some confidence, and suffered for a couple years... but I think he's had an outstanding season... he's still got plenty to learn but he's young, and I think him, Smalling, and De Gea are going to be looking after our defense for years.And Rooney... you talk about selling him and reinvesting the money as if that could be reasonably expected... come on Mate... that wouldn't happen and you know it... there are a few key areas that need new/class talent... if we sold Rooney, there is no way we would replace him with anything like similar quality.
Well will see on Evans, he has been good the 2nd half of the season and you think he is the future of the club, this time last year most people were hoping he wouldn't play for United again.
It won't be a choice thing, I think Rooney will want out eventually.
David
Member
The fact that Park or Giggs are not natural centre-midfielders doesn’t change the fact that they were playing there that night, does it. What an absolutely useless point.
Actually maybe it’s not that useless because it can help explain your next question. Carrick did not play too well himself those nights, I’m under no illusions. But if Park or Giggs are not natural centre-midfielders, and I agree they are not, doesn’t that make Carrick’s job a little more difficult?
They’re often guilty of forcing the play, losing possession, and getting caught further up the pitch, leaving us exposed and susceptible to couner-attacks and being pinned back once again by a team of Barcelona’s quality.
In each final Carrick was joined by one of the above and Anderson. Now I think we all agree he isn’t the best. He gives the ball away often and positionally he is one of the doziest midfielders you will ever see at a top club.
Now doesn’t that make Carrick’s job difficult. Of course, he didn’t do brilliantly, especially in the 2009 final but there are very few players, if any, who could help us overpower a side like Barcelona when those are his partners in crime.
David
Member
“2 We see Michael Carrick play a game without Scholes and we get beaten by Wigan.”
What about all the gamess we’ve played this season without Carrick and have lost or drawn? What about all the games we’ve won with Carrick in he side and Scholes not?
The fact is our record with Carrick is a hell of a lot better than our record without him.
Our record is best when both Scholes and Carrick plauy because they are the two best ball players, they keep possession, control the midfield and they form a really good partnership in the centre.
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
squigs said:
Well will see on Evans, he has been good the 2nd half of the season and you think he is the future of the club, this time last year most people were hoping he wouldn't play for United again.It won't be a choice thing, I think Rooney will want out eventually.
No, you're right about Evans last year... but he's been the one and only consistent centre back this year... we would have been in real trouble without him... of course it's possible that he could turn to shit next year... but you can say that about any player...
And I honestly think Rooney had a brain cramp, along with some shit stirring advice from his agent... it obviously caught everyone by surprise, even Fergie was shocked... that's why I don't think it was something he gave a lot of thought about... and Rooney seemed genuinely shocked by the trouble it created... I don't think he'll do that again... and being as he's a local lad, with a settled family... I can't see him leaving.
Besides... he got what he wanted... a big fat pay rise.
dozer
Member
Alfonso Bedoya said:
No, you're right about Evans last year... but he's been the one and only consistent centre back this year... we would have been in real trouble without him... of course it's possible that he could turn to shit next year... but you can say that about any player...And I honestly think Rooney had a brain cramp, along with some shit stirring advice from his agent... it obviously caught everyone by surprise, even Fergie was shocked... that's why I don't think it was something he gave a lot of thought about... and Rooney seemed genuinely shocked by the trouble it created... I don't think he'll do that again... and being as he's a local lad, with a settled family... I can't see him leaving.
Besides... he got what he wanted... a big fat pay rise.
He'll go. Ronaldo went after a year he requested for a transfer, Rooney will eventually go. It depends on the market too, Real were in for Ronaldo, will they shell out for Rooney? I think they will. Kaka's been shite, Di Maria's crap and Rooney's a 'celebrity' player - the kind of player that attract Real.
Alfonso Bedoya
Moderator
dozer said:
He'll go. Ronaldo went after a year he requested for a transfer, Rooney will eventually go. It depends on the market too, Real were in for Ronaldo, will they shell out for Rooney? I think they will. Kaka's been shite, Di Maria's crap and Rooney's a 'celebrity' player - the kind of player that attract Real.
Rooney will do nothing without his missus permission...
sheesh
Member
Surely, Cal, you would accept that united have looked like a different team this season with scholes back in the side? It would be churlish to suggest otherwise. Yes, Carrick has also been great this season but I don't see how anyone can deny the impact Scholes has had.
sheesh said:
Surely, Cal, you would accept that united have looked like a different team this season with scholes back in the side? It would be churlish to suggest otherwise. Yes, Carrick has also been great this season but I don't see how anyone can deny the impact Scholes has had.
I honestly do not see it. I don't. His passing has never been an issue. has he made us a better unit? I do not think so. Will he be found out in bigger matches? Yes. Frankly, a lot hot air has been made of his matches this season.
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