J Corbyn best speech yet

Political Debate
User avatar
Sid
Legend
Posts: 24288
Joined: 7 years ago

3 years ago

It's drug research under capitalism, it's fucking hopeless, because the priority is profit not saving peoples lives

If the prioirty was actually saving people, not making money, then we'd have got on top of cancer ages ago, and shitloads of other illnesses. If we plowed money into research and study to benefit the race as whole, like research into new drugs, not bombs, fucking bonuses for the rich, subsidising arms deals etc then we'd be on top of a lot of serious illnesses by now - and we'd know more about the deeply complicated ones like dementia. But research has to be justified financially, so generally they'll only research stuff that will make a financial return on their investment. Fuck the actual people.

Like antibiotic resistance, the pharmas flat out refused to research a new solution unless they secured money from governments - despite being able to pay for it themselves. Meanwhile people are suffering and dying because of it. In the UK there's a type of gonnorhea and a brutal cough that are untreatable with modern antibiotics - and thousands are suffering, and some will die. You want to hope you don't get it. The cough is going around birmingham at the minute, there's been warnings telling people not go to certain places if you think you might have it. Those with underlying health problems like asthma are in trouble if they get it.

But yeah remember it's the best system, all the others are worse, so we just have to go with it
User avatar
redzebs
Legend
Posts: 11439
Joined: 7 years ago

3 years ago

Sorry, I just refuse to be that cynical that respected charities that are fighting against the tide and power of governments and big pharma companies are all a load of shite and pointless.

Personally if I had the choice I would have donated to Hospice/ children's Hospice.

But Cancer Research doesn't go against the grain, it's not fuckin help for heroes or any other charity that people can take offence at.

They provide private nurses, fuck all to do with the government, you can speak to for advice privately.

I've just spent from Christmas Eve to last week with a relative in hospital and trying to speak to a nurse for two mins even is a nightmare, God love them, they are run off their feet. Aye world governments could cure cancer quicker but if they can't be arsed or are making too much money, any respectable company that hires scientists and researchers to try and make progress can have my shillings.

Fuck me, we'll be saying Doctors Without Borders are timewasters next.
Well I suppose that's the knighthood fucked.
User avatar
Sid
Legend
Posts: 24288
Joined: 7 years ago

3 years ago

Doctors without borders are fucking ace from what I know of em, mutual aid in action, fuck borders, help people regardless of nationality, race, all that
User avatar
FuB
Legend
Posts: 5923
Joined: 4 years ago
Location: Littlewoods Data Entry Department

3 years ago

Sid wrote:It's drug research under capitalism, it's fucking hopeless, because the priority is profit not saving peoples lives

If the prioirty was actually saving people, not making money, then we'd have got on top of cancer ages ago, and shitloads of other illnesses. If we plowed money into research and study to benefit the race as whole, like research into new drugs, not bombs, fucking bonuses for the rich, subsidising arms deals etc then we'd be on top of a lot of serious illnesses by now - and we'd know more about the deeply complicated ones like dementia. But research has to be justified financially, so generally they'll only research stuff that will make a financial return on their investment. Fuck the actual people.
Again, I think it's important to understand that "cancer" is not just one thing and is many, many different diseases in many, many different parts of the body that seem to have many, many different causative processes... and that's just talking about what is "known" - which is definitely a very small fraction of the whole. Getting on top of cancer means getting on top of all of these things because, as you show, the public perception is that it's just one thing and "they" ought to be able to sort it all out in one single swoop.

Sid is absolutely correct that big pharma will prioritise drug research and development in terms of where they perceive the quickest return on their investment to be... however, it's ridiculously expensive to get a drug from promising research candidate to marketable drug. This is a process that takes a long time - typically 10 to 15 years - and so many candidate drugs fail to pass through this process. Big Pharma then looks recoup it's outlay for not just the successful drug but ALL of the other drugs that fell along the way. They also look to recoup their costs as quickly as possible because their patent (that they almost certainly applied for at the BEGINNING of the research period) will expire in (typically) 20 years. They also look to gain some up-front funding for future research into their next drugs. THEN they whack a huge profit margin on top.

This is not to excuse their - frankly unethical - behaviour but to clarify that the costs of pharmaceuticals isn't just driven by profit. The fact that so much profit is added is dreadful but it doesn't necessarily follow that things would become super cheap if profit margins were removed.
Sid wrote:Like antibiotic resistance, the pharmas flat out refused to research a new solution unless they secured money from governments - despite being able to pay for it themselves. Meanwhile people are suffering and dying because of it. In the UK there's a type of gonnorhea and a brutal cough that are untreatable with modern antibiotics - and thousands are suffering, and some will die. You want to hope you don't get it. The cough is going around birmingham at the minute, there's been warnings telling people not go to certain places if you think you might have it. Those with underlying health problems like asthma are in trouble if they get it.

But yeah remember it's the best system, all the others are worse, so we just have to go with it
Antibiotic resistance is more complicated than just chucking money and more research into new antibiotics. The way current antibiotics are prescribed and misused has created the crisis of antibiotic resistance so there needs to be more sense and education applied to the situation as well. Antibiotic resistance is also developing and moving between species of bacteria faster than research into new drugs.

Is this brutal cough caused by bacteria or something else, i.e. a virus. if the latter then antibiotics would never have been effective.
I may be able to fix a forum but I can't fix a fuckwit
User avatar
Sid
Legend
Posts: 24288
Joined: 7 years ago

3 years ago

Good bit of insight there, Fub, nice one

Antibiotics are overprescribd aye, but I read that the main reason for resistance is meat - aka farmers that pump their cattle full of antibiotics to keep em healthy, and that's passed on to us when we drink milk or eat meat

This cough... the impression I got from the bham mail is that its some kind of chest infection, so bacterial. But I just googled and some have said it's viral but may lead to bacterial infections (but presumably they can be treat by antibiotics)

Have you seen the super gonnorhea bug? Sounds fucking awful. Thousands are infected as well. Wear a fucking condom
User avatar
Lazarus
Legend
Posts: 16182
Joined: 7 years ago

3 years ago

Zebs fair play to you for bothering your hole to raise some money for Cancer Research.

The problem facing us all is the huge growth in the population of the Earth. There are far too many of us fuckers alive and the problem is growing exponentially. Of course the powers that be want half of us wiped out, it only makes sense. Maybe they thought that the recent Ebola outbreak would thin the herd, they gave it every chance before they acted decisively to prevent the spread.

The antibiotic problem could help greatly in wiping a load of us out as well. War is the most profitable way to do it though.
"Respect! Respect! Respect Maan! Respect! Respect!........." [-X
User avatar
FuB
Legend
Posts: 5923
Joined: 4 years ago
Location: Littlewoods Data Entry Department

3 years ago

Sid wrote:Good bit of insight there, Fub, nice one

Antibiotics are overprescribd aye, but I read that the main reason for resistance is meat - aka farmers that pump their cattle full of antibiotics to keep em healthy, and that's passed on to us when we drink milk or eat meat
This is definitely one of the main contributory factors. It's not that the antibiotics are passed onto us - they would be metabolised by cattle, poultry, etc. However, the overuse and misuse of antibiotics allows evolutionary processes to drive towards resistance. Any bacterium which is - probably initially due to a simple mutation - somehow resistant to an antibiotic being used will be selected for (yes, this IS natural selection in miniature and in fast forward compared to higher organisms such as us) and then a population of that resistant bacterium can grow.

It gets a bit more scary though because bacteria can also carry little packets of extra DNA called "plasmids" that don't actually contribute to their main genetic code. Think of them a bit like a little diskette with some extra software on them. This software could be that which codes for antibiotic resistance and the really scary bit is that they are able to SHARE these little plasmids with each other and, crucially, with entirely different species of bacteria. This is why they are all freaking out when one type bacteria develops a resistance to an antibiotic... it can very quickly, given the right circumstances, pass that resistance to a different type of bacteria that is far more dangerous to humans.
Sid wrote: This cough... the impression I got from the bham mail is that its some kind of chest infection, so bacterial. But I just googled and some have said it's viral but may lead to bacterial infections (but presumably they can be treat by antibiotics)
what you tend to find is that a virus comes in and gets a hold of you... then sneaky, otherwise easily fightable (and likely always there) bacteria come in and take advantage of a compromised system.
Sid wrote: Have you seen the super gonnorhea bug? Sounds fucking awful. Thousands are infected as well. Wear a fucking condom
This sort of shit was always going to happen. We need to remember that we are literally chock full of and covered with billions of bacteria of many different types. Many are critical to our survival. Sometimes we get something we don't want and it makes us it. Doctor whoever gives us some antibiotics and we, typically, start to feel better in a couple of days. Too many people then think, "well, i'm alright now so fuck the rest of these tablets" and, by doing that, they are unwittingly selecting for any of the billions of different bacteria that might have - by chance - developed a resistance or already been resistant to said antibiotic. This is all fine and dandy because it's one of the "good bacteria"... but, somewhere down the line it meets a bad cousin like neisseria gonorrhoeae or mycobacterium tuberculosis and has a bit of a diskette swapping party...
I may be able to fix a forum but I can't fix a fuckwit
User avatar
Sid
Legend
Posts: 24288
Joined: 7 years ago

3 years ago

Well that's fucking frightening. Have they any idea how to fight it? I heard there might have been a breakthrough in a 'new' antibiotic?
pint vulger
Legend
Posts: 2043
Joined: 4 years ago

3 years ago

Well constructed thread ,what I cant understand is the criticism of Corbyn ( his politics) ,his solutions are not profit based ,the transport and nhs systems are in crisis ,Corbyn plans to fix it yet he still gets shit from the media ,because thats the beast created to support their policy.
Read between the lines .
Vote Corbyn.
User avatar
FuB
Legend
Posts: 5923
Joined: 4 years ago
Location: Littlewoods Data Entry Department

3 years ago

Sid wrote:Well that's fucking frightening. Have they any idea how to fight it? I heard there might have been a breakthrough in a 'new' antibiotic?
well, yes... on the face of it, it's all very frightening but try not to buy completely into the media hysteria that comes out all the time. the term "superbug" is such a misleading concept. in general, these things are no more infective than their non-resistant strains and it's the fact that there are less and less effective treatments WHEN they cause an infection that makes them a concern.

taking this resistant gonorrhoea as an example... ultimately the same advice still holds true, i.e. don't be a fucking idiot (pun intended). it's a problem IF you get infected but we do have it within our power to avoid being infected. it's a similar story with the famous MRSA problem. Staph. aureus is an extremely common bacterium and a good 30% of the population carries it on their skin naturally. Sometimes it manages to take advantage of a compromised host - say, you've cut yourself and didn't bother to clean the wound and dress it properly. Even then, your immune system is pretty damn good at fighting these things off. We're constantly at war and generally winning, without the need for antibiotic assistance. MRSA is pretty much identical to bog standard non-resistant staph. aureus - it doesn't have wings or a cape - but, if your immune system isn't up to scratch (say, you're elderly or immuno-compromised in some way due to disease or medical treatment) it might take hold and then you have a problem because treatment possibilities are more limited.

In terms of new antibiotics, i'm sure there must be a few good candidates but they will almost all be stuck somewhere in the lengthy process of research, clinical trials and regulatory approval. as I said before, this could be 15 years or so which means that finding something miraculous today won't be helping anyone anytime soon.

in the end, even though it all sounds bleak, i don't think it really spells as much doom and gloom as the - scientifically incompetent - press would have us believe. worldwide pandemics of ebola or bird flu haven't really happened have they? in the same way that all instances of the plague during the middle ages always managed to burn themselves out - even in a period where modern healthcare and medical understanding was non-existent - because there's simply no benefit for an infectious organism to kill all of its potential hosts, thus, ultimately, taking itself with them.
I may be able to fix a forum but I can't fix a fuckwit
Post Reply