Salisbury Poisoning

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Sid
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6 months ago

Yeah definitely. There's a new wave of toxic nationalism happening in russia at the min, it's them v us stuff. And the UK/US are talking tough but as far as I'm aware lots of countries are dependent on russia for gas and other stuff. Seem to remember a few years ago they cut off Italy's gas supply because they hadn't paid the bill.
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Lazarus
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6 months ago

Until they start targeting the money that Putin and his Oligarch buddies have then the people of Russia are no barrier to him.
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FuB
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6 months ago

so, now Yulia, the daughter, is responsive and talking.

the most dangerous nerve agent known to man (that was shrouded in so much secrecy no one knew of it till now) that kills quickly from minute quantities fails to do so as long as you have a drink down the pub and a meal at zizzi's several hours after you should already be dead.

if things didn't add up before, they definitely don't now. the magic health-giving properties of zizzi's pretend Italian food should be the subject of some serious research after this. they could have stumbled upon the elixir of life.
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Sid
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6 months ago

:))

Aye they were poisoned at their home by the looks of it, then had a day out

I can't wait to hear what she has to say, if she's allowed to speak
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Lazarus
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6 months ago

FuB wrote:
6 months ago
so, now Yulia, the daughter, is responsive and talking.

the most dangerous nerve agent known to man (that was shrouded in so much secrecy no one knew of it till now) that kills quickly from minute quantities fails to do so as long as you have a drink down the pub and a meal at zizzi's several hours after you should already be dead.

if things didn't add up before, they definitely don't now. the magic health-giving properties of zizzi's pretend Italian food should be the subject of some serious research after this. they could have stumbled upon the elixir of life.
:))
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Lazarus
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6 months ago

Sid wrote:
6 months ago
:))

Aye they were poisoned at their home by the looks of it, then had a day out

I can't wait to hear what she has to say, if she's allowed to speak
She'd probably say, "Это была отличная пицца!"
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Sid
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6 months ago

The fella is getting better now. I thought it was a lethal toxin that could kill in minutes?

Fub, you know about this stuff, what are your thoughts? One thing for sure is all sides are using it for political gain
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Sid
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6 months ago

Lazarus wrote:
6 months ago
Sid wrote:
6 months ago
:))

Aye they were poisoned at their home by the looks of it, then had a day out

I can't wait to hear what she has to say, if she's allowed to speak
She'd probably say, "Это была отличная пицца!"
I just translated that :))
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FuB
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6 months ago

Sid wrote:
6 months ago
The fella is getting better now. I thought it was a lethal toxin that could kill in minutes?

Fub, you know about this stuff, what are your thoughts? One thing for sure is all sides are using it for political gain
I can't say I'm an expert in neurotoxins but I do have to admit this story has peaked my interest like most science-based things will. I do know chemistry - that's what I did my degree in - but I wouldn't want to imply i'm any good at it, which is evidenced by the fact my career path went in a very different direction very quickly after I graduated.

It's been quite hard to delve through all the bullshit here, especially because it's shrouded in the sort of disinformation and manipulation you'd expect in the world of espionage and international politics. The fact it's happened under such a massive recent (well, sort of recent) wave of anti-Russian propaganda doesn't help at all... gives such an easy platform for conspiracy theories and that's clearly what the Russian disinformation/distraction/denial machine is relying on right now. Despite my initial half tongue in cheek post saying that it could just as easily be a dirty trick from "our side", it's hard to square that with Russia's current behaviour which just puts me in mind of a naughty kid who's been caught red handed and is trying every excuse under the sun to prove his innocence. I certainly don't feel that their making such a fucking song and dance of it, daily, is the sort of behaviour I'd expect from someone who is sure of their innocence. I'm probably/definitely biased there though.

"I thought it was a lethal toxin that could kill in minutes"

Well, I was taking the piss a bit with my earlier posts regarding that. The truth of the matter is that NO FUCKER KNOWS about these chemicals. There is no published toxicity data available for anyone to refer to so this whole debacle just smacks of typical hack journalism on science stories where they cherry pick little bits and pieces that, often, are either presented as extremes or are blatant (and admitted) supposition in any original documentation. They've picked out the juicy bits that make for a nice, sensationalist story and presented them as fact so now it's suddenly a "fact" that this "nerve agent" is "ten times more potent than VX" and "kills in minutes". In the end, Porton Down have identified (more on that later) a chemical which is part of A GROUP of compounds given an umbrella name "Novichok" by the researchers who created them. That's the only fact that's been presented by anyone scientifically capable of presenting one. That and the fact there's no known antidote - hardly a surprise when you're dealing with something you don't know much about - so any treatment is symptomatic and cross your fingers.

There's been quite a number of proposed chemical structures published in various places before this episode happened and they've all been regurgitated in the last month. I'd initially assumed this toxin would be a complex structure but, looking at the structures I've seen published recently, none of them are exceptionally difficult to make for someone with enough training and skill (I count myself out of that group). This DOES lend weight to the narrative that it's by no means a given that this toxin was made in or came from Russia... however I don't wish to suggest it's a trivial affair to make chemicals that will kill the person making them if they aren't careful so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to start making chemicals you don't really know enough about just to frame the Russians. I mean... why not just use VX which we've all seen the potency of in the recent assassination of Kim Jong Un's brother?

For me, the key "selling point" for this toxin is that it's likely (although, again, we don't know for certain) a "binary weapon"... so you can mix two relatively safe things together - maybe at the point of delivery - and make something lethal (or intended to be). That makes it an excellent assassination weapon and i'd wager that this was the driving force for development and NOT looking for something "ten times more powerful" than anything else (you only need to kill someone, not kill them ten times better). The fact that they've apparently recovered the compound from several places in various concentrations supports this, really. If it was so amazingly potent, they wouldn't have needed to blanket bomb the target.

Regarding Porton Down:

First... the "amazing" ability to identify this toxin "so quickly"...

A facility with the undoubted resources, equipment and personnel they have really ought to be able to identify the chemical structure of a sample within the timeframe it took them... especially one as simple as the structures i've seen proposed. Comparing that against the same documented structures that have been published doesn't require them to actually have a sample themselves. That's smokescreen nonsense. You could give them a sample of paracetamol and they'd be able to give you the structure in the same timeframe without needing to have a paracetamol tablet in the lab to "compare" against.

Second... not being able to identify it as "coming from Russia".

Fuck me, did the detractors jump on that as some sort of proof by absence of proof that Russia couldn't be the source. In the end, it's like crushing up a paracetamol and getting them to tell you whether you bought it from Boots or Superdrug. Nothing about a chemical tells you where it was made. That's just fucking ludicrous.
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Sid
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6 months ago

That's class, Fub. The best guide to this shite I've read. The media is just full of it, cold war part 2. You can't get any sense or legit facts that haven't been twisted out of the cunts to the point were it's pointless reading it. Boris Johnson is backtracking now over claiming it was definitely Russia... It's a farce, right down to the twat that fucked up the assassination.
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