Coronavirus

[FuB]

Fub, have you seen the research that shows poverty & policy is the biggest reason for covid transmission - less so not wearing face masks?

Supports what I was saying before. In poor areas the tier lockdowns haven't really worked and coronavirus has continued spreading cos you can't work from home, also lots of multi generational living, strained services, poor health & lifestyle and shitloads of pollution to name a few contributers - all of which make coronavirus more deadly. The trend is clear now and is acknowledged
by PHE https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/54250626 and others

Here's where policy is to blame: Sunak encouraging face to face consumer spending to boost the economy and sticking low paid workers on 67% furlough wages, which basically forced em back to work cos it's not enough to live on, has been catastrophic. Even on 80%, once employers had to start paying contributions after a few months in to keep their staff on furlough, many sent em back.

Definitely a major factor. Another problem is that tier 1 and tier 2 are basically bollocks, barely slow spread of the virus at all. So anyplace not tier 3 was not much better than being tier Trump.

Mask wearing was only ever a part of the solution. Same with lockdowns and the waste of time tiering concept. None of this was intended to eradicate covid; instead being a way to slow things down and buy time. The only way to demonstrably eradicate a pathogen is to be serious about testing, tracing and isolation and the UK govt never were. Not that it's particularly easy to do since to do it effectively i think you probably need to be a totalitarian state.

Obviously socio-economic factors are crucial in a population's ability to comply with any required protocols. I don't have any answers though.

An anti capitalist revolution is the answer, my friend

Btw I didn't mean that post to sound so arsey / confrontational, it's just how it came out when I was writing it at midnight after a long day

That's a good point though, we don't want lockdowns or a totalitarian state, and neither would be necessary with an effective test and trace system. But like you say the british government was never serious about creating one. They only mentioned it to help manage the flak.

In your opinion is a third lockdown necessary? All the experts I've seen say it is, and it needs to happen today. But the gov won't do it because it's too toxic to lockdown at christmas even though it will cost thousands of lives.

Meanwhile New Zealand have had just over 2,000 infections and just 25 deaths. They've successfully managed the crisis until a cure became available which is all we ever wanted from the british posh boys, but that was too much.

I didn't read your post as any more arsey than you usually are

Another lockdown... definitely but Boris hasn't had the balls to do it like literally everywhere else in Europe has. They've got a, so far, uncontrolled increase in cases of this new strain in the south east and it's almost certainly already circulating everywhere else. Not locking down now is fucking dumb... but not doing what's necessary is par for the course with the tories, isn't it? well, unless there's a quick buck to be made somewhere.

with respect to New Zealand, i think you do need to bear in mind it's a tiny place with a tiny population in the middle of fucking nowhere. you can't really draw comparisons but i do appreciate the government there has been far more decisive and sensible throughout.

A note on your use of the word "cure" there. There isn't a cure and a worldwide vaccination programme is just going to be chasing our tail for the foreseeable future. I fear that, just like the flu, we'll have covid circulating for the rest of our lives unless the vaccines turn out to give longer term immunity than is currently predicted. The world is looking at it like it's some sort of magic bullet but it STILL needs an effective test and trace regime in order to quash any little pockets of infection that remain. That's also on top of the fact we're going to have an unknown quantity of bellends refusing to get vaccinated... oh, and now the pope has piped up to tell the entire catholic world pfizer and moderna are better excusable for using embryo cells than astrazeneca. top work, frankie.

[Sid]

Fub, have you seen the research that shows poverty & policy is the biggest reason for covid transmission - less so not wearing face masks?

Supports what I was saying before. In poor areas the tier lockdowns haven't really worked and coronavirus has continued spreading cos you can't work from home, also lots of multi generational living, strained services, poor health & lifestyle and shitloads of pollution to name a few contributers - all of which make coronavirus more deadly. The trend is clear now and is acknowledged
by PHE https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/54250626 and others

Here's where policy is to blame: Sunak encouraging face to face consumer spending to boost the economy and sticking low paid workers on 67% furlough wages, which basically forced em back to work cos it's not enough to live on, has been catastrophic. Even on 80%, once employers had to start paying contributions after a few months in to keep their staff on furlough, many sent em back.

Definitely a major factor. Another problem is that tier 1 and tier 2 are basically bollocks, barely slow spread of the virus at all. So anyplace not tier 3 was not much better than being tier Trump.

Mask wearing was only ever a part of the solution. Same with lockdowns and the waste of time tiering concept. None of this was intended to eradicate covid; instead being a way to slow things down and buy time. The only way to demonstrably eradicate a pathogen is to be serious about testing, tracing and isolation and the UK govt never were. Not that it's particularly easy to do since to do it effectively i think you probably need to be a totalitarian state.

Obviously socio-economic factors are crucial in a population's ability to comply with any required protocols. I don't have any answers though.

An anti capitalist revolution is the answer, my friend

Btw I didn't mean that post to sound so arsey / confrontational, it's just how it came out when I was writing it at midnight after a long day

That's a good point though, we don't want lockdowns or a totalitarian state, and neither would be necessary with an effective test and trace system. But like you say the british government was never serious about creating one. They only mentioned it to help manage the flak.

In your opinion is a third lockdown necessary? All the experts I've seen say it is, and it needs to happen today. But the gov won't do it because it's too toxic to lockdown at christmas even though it will cost thousands of lives.

Meanwhile New Zealand have had just over 2,000 infections and just 25 deaths. They've successfully managed the crisis until a cure became available which is all we ever wanted from the british posh boys, but that was too much.

I didn't read your post as any more arsey than you usually are

Another lockdown... definitely but Boris hasn't had the balls to do it like literally everywhere else in Europe has. They've got a, so far, uncontrolled increase in cases of this new strain in the south east and it's almost certainly already circulating everywhere else. Not locking down now is fucking dumb... but not doing what's necessary is par for the course with the tories, isn't it? well, unless there's a quick buck to be made somewhere.

with respect to New Zealand, i think you do need to bear in mind it's a tiny place with a tiny population in the middle of fucking nowhere. you can't really draw comparisons but i do appreciate the government there has been far more decisive and sensible throughout.

A note on your use of the word "cure" there. There isn't a cure and a worldwide vaccination programme is just going to be chasing our tail for the foreseeable future. I fear that, just like the flu, we'll have covid circulating for the rest of our lives unless the vaccines turn out to give longer term immunity than is currently predicted. The world is looking at it like it's some sort of magic bullet but it STILL needs an effective test and trace regime in order to quash any little pockets of infection that remain. That's also on top of the fact we're going to have an unknown quantity of bellends refusing to get vaccinated... oh, and now the pope has piped up to tell the entire catholic world pfizer and moderna are better excusable for using embryo cells than astrazeneca. top work, frankie.

Fair

Second para: that's a sobering thought. Apparently the immunity for the jab lasts for a year? Has anybody asked what then? Do we keep jabbing people indefinitely or what

[FuB]

Second para: that's a sobering thought. Apparently the immunity for the jab lasts for a year? Has anybody asked what then? Do we keep jabbing people indefinitely or what

There's no way that can be stated with any amount of evidence backing it up. The short story is they have no idea and any numbers they pluck out of their arses are just more hoping on hope.

[Sid]

There's a new strain from South Africa now ffs. Apparently more transmissible than the new one in Britain.

How many will they let die before they lockdown?

[Sid]

I've seen a fair bit suggesting these new strains affect young people & kids more. Personal testimony backs up that claim too.



Probably why all schools in London shut immediately. They must know more than us.

[Sid]

There it is, lockdown 3

[FuB]

I can't believe football is continuing. Its not just the players - the support staff involved in training and putting on games must number in the hundreds for every fixture.

But as long as these people remain in their bubbles, then isn't the risk the same? I employ 45 people and we are continuing as normal (we are classed as essential workers) on the strict proviso that ALL staff are extra cautious in their personal lives for them to be able to work. And at least 75% of our staff have asked to come into the office on a rota basis.

What do you define as "extra cautious" and how do you ensure that they are? What do you do to ensure any employee who doesn't meet your standard doesn't put the rest of them at risk?

[fat maradona]

I can't believe football is continuing. Its not just the players - the support staff involved in training and putting on games must number in the hundreds for every fixture.

But as long as these people remain in their bubbles, then isn't the risk the same? I employ 45 people and we are continuing as normal (we are classed as essential workers) on the strict proviso that ALL staff are extra cautious in their personal lives for them to be able to work. And at least 75% of our staff have asked to come into the office on a rota basis.

What do you define as "extra cautious" and how do you ensure that they are? What do you do to ensure any employee who doesn't meet your standard doesn't put the rest of them at risk?

What we have done as employers is to reduce the number of people in on a given day in either office so that everyone is at least 2 metres from a colleague and that no employee needs to use equipment which isn't on their desk. There's no hot desking, no use of the canteen and we have ppe everywhere. Everyone needs to wipe down door handles, desks etc as well as regularly washing hands and wearing masks when not at their desks. There is zero client contact and reception is closed off from the rest of the office. Staff have really appreciated being able to come into the office for the social interaction, the semblance of 'normality' and mostly to get out of the house.

In terms of what we do to ensure that staff are extra cautious outside of the office, well, all we can do is send comms after comms on what is sensible and what is not. We only employ 'adults' (although you'd question some of them for their maturity) and so have to treat them as such. What we suggest staff do in their personal lives is limit their activities and act in a way which keeps them safe and their colleagues (should they wish to come into the office). We are a close knit group tbf and Managers talk to Juniors and this way, through the grapevine I guess, we get an understanding of those that are acting in an irresponsible way. We have then had discussions with those 'offenders' and reminded them of what is responsible behaviour and what isn't. We can't enforce anything apart from a no return to office policy and we are (fairly) lucky to have employees who want to come into the office.

Don't get me wrong, we've had employees who have tested positive. They follow government protocol and we deep clean the office. And people just need to come to terms that for normality to resume, we just need to take more care of who/how we interact with others.

[FuB]

I can't believe football is continuing. Its not just the players - the support staff involved in training and putting on games must number in the hundreds for every fixture.

But as long as these people remain in their bubbles, then isn't the risk the same? I employ 45 people and we are continuing as normal (we are classed as essential workers) on the strict proviso that ALL staff are extra cautious in their personal lives for them to be able to work. And at least 75% of our staff have asked to come into the office on a rota basis.

What do you define as "extra cautious" and how do you ensure that they are? What do you do to ensure any employee who doesn't meet your standard doesn't put the rest of them at risk?

What we have done as employers is to reduce the number of people in on a given day in either office so that everyone is at least 2 metres from a colleague and that no employee needs to use equipment which isn't on their desk. There's no hot desking, no use of the canteen and we have ppe everywhere. Everyone needs to wipe down door handles, desks etc as well as regularly washing hands and wearing masks when not at their desks. There is zero client contact and reception is closed off from the rest of the office. Staff have really appreciated being able to come into the office for the social interaction, the semblance of 'normality' and mostly to get out of the house.

Thanks for taking the time to post this, fatty.

This all seems eminently sensible although i'd perhaps want to include the need for wearing masks whilst at desks. I can appreciate it's not a pleasant experience and especially for 8 hours solid but it might just add that extra belt and braces. I note you've thought about making sure someone doesn't, say, borrow a colleagues stapler or whatever and they need to wear a mask if they move from their desk... but it must surely happen that people forget to don their mask on occasions? I've lost count of the times i've stepped out of my front door and then remembered my mask, despite it having been mandatory for months. It's never likely to become something that's second nature to us all and therefore it's just so easy to forget, especially if you're concentrating on something else as you would be in a work setting.

Do you have to provide a kitchenette type facility to allow people to make hot drinks, etc.? How do you manage that if so?

In terms of what we do to ensure that staff are extra cautious outside of the office, well, all we can do is send comms after comms on what is sensible and what is not. We only employ 'adults' (although you'd question some of them for their maturity) and so have to treat them as such. What we suggest staff do in their personal lives is limit their activities and act in a way which keeps them safe and their colleagues (should they wish to come into the office). We are a close knit group tbf and Managers talk to Juniors and this way, through the grapevine I guess, we get an understanding of those that are acting in an irresponsible way. We have then had discussions with those 'offenders' and reminded them of what is responsible behaviour and what isn't. We can't enforce anything apart from a no return to office policy and we are (fairly) lucky to have employees who want to come into the office.

Don't get me wrong, we've had employees who have tested positive. They follow government protocol and we deep clean the office. And people just need to come to terms that for normality to resume, we just need to take more care of who/how we interact with others.

It must certainly be easier to manage this in a small organisation where people are close knit. Still, as you've pointed out, you can't enforce anything outside of the office... and it's impossible to govern how other people within the sphere of your employees behave. The problem is that it really only takes one knobend to fuck things up for many, many people so I don't envy you in needing to try and manage a safe working environment.

Regarding deep cleaning... what does this actually entail and how much does it cost? Again, I'm genuinely interested and i'm not asking questions in order to find fault in anything. If you don't know the answers or can't be arsed to post further then i understand.

Your very last statement resonates... we just need to take more care. All these cunts banging on about civil liberties or conspiracy theories need a slap. I'm fairly sure it'd be so much more inconvenient to be dead.

[fat maradona]

Nah it's cool FuB. Re the deep cleaning, this entails all staff being at home and the cleaners (local specialist outfit) coming in and effectively bleaching EVERYTHING. Any hard surfaces are disinfected and any carpeted areas are steam cleaned. Staff can't return to the office until at least 24 hours have elapsed. It's a fucking ball ache and ends up costing us a fair bit, not just the ££ spent on cleaners, PPE etc but also the down time in staff faffing about. My business sells advice and essentially we sell our time, so any down time is just a big opportunity cost to us. Think it costs around £250 each time.

What I have realised through all of this is that most people are pretty sensible, they think about what they are doing throughout their day and thinking of others. A handful of melts need a slap, they moan about the dangers of leaving their beds and coming into the office but then regale everyone about how long the queue was at McDonalds. Or what a pain it was to go Xmas shopping to one of the local mega-malls. I have been asked by HR to keep my mouth shut because my frank views aren't what these people want to hear.

Re providing kitchenette facilities, I've no idea. All I know is that we decided that the only communal areas to be available are the loos.