Brexit

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Sid
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1 month ago

marlon wrote:
1 month ago
Sid wrote:
1 month ago
bman2 wrote:
1 month ago
The good news is that it looks like Labour will officially become a pro-Remain party now. "Brexit" effectively being defined as nut job no deal brexit -- it's obvious that's the way the tories will go -- leaves no space left for Corbyn's socialist brexit fantasy. Drop that delusional, and you're left with a straight choice between hard right brexit and a remain coalition from the centre-right all the way to the left.
A left wing brexit was never an option. We're getting a right wing brexit. Labour are just respecting the referendum result as they should or else mistrust in politicians and a disgust at the political class will rise even more.

Looks like another bad night for centrists. Europe is more left v right now. We'll have to wait another 4 years before the heoric centrists save us.
Corbyn and whoever else have been advocating brexit for decades I thought? The problem is he and whoever else believes in a left brexit have said nothing for 4 years. On the other hand Farage got himself on every tv and radio show pushing his view. Since the referendum he's managed to convert most leave voters into no deal leavers. Meanwhile no one even knows what a lw brexit would look like.

And Labour passively respecting the referendum result is allowing the far right to set the agenda which is total bullshit.
You don't hear about a left wing brexit because we've got a right wing press that's owned by a handful of billionaires who for the last 3 years have ignored and played down labours socialist manifesto because it would directly affect them and their interests. Farage gets his views aired bedcause his right wing no deal brexit suits them (the part of capital that backs a no deal, most back remain). The fash Mail have been after that for decades. Whereas they're not going to publish Corbyn/Benns arguments for a lexit are they? Or nationalisation, or taxing the rich aka the Rothermeres.

It is now tbf, that's why labour have said they're backing a second ref on the brexit deal. We'll see how that affects the working class vote. Maybe not that much, if it's against a no deal brexit because surely there's not much support for that.

The problem for all parties is... Farage int going away. He said he's going to stand at a general election. If we end up remaining or having a GE before brexit happens, the BP demolishes the tories and takes a huge chunk from labour, and pushes for another ref which he'll get. Also not delivering brexit is strenghtening the right who're talking about treason and destroying the political class. It's not a problem that will be solved by a ref. The future is bleak tbf more so because centrists have absolutely no answers to fascism.
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swampash
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1 month ago

Farage's manner when dealing with the media is more and more reminiscent of Trump. He looks to me like he's being tutored by the alt right. Some investigative journalism urgently needed into links to alt right funding and possible engagement with Bannon.
As for Corbyn, he's a marxist and therefore believes in state ownership of the controlling heights. That can't happen within the EU, so he's for Brexit.

My own perspective on how it pans out, for what it's worth is: Johnson wins the Tory party leadership. Has to shift unequivocally to a crash out Brexit position to head off Farage. No way that will get through Parliament, so we will end up with a general election to break the impasse. This will force Labour to get off the fence and resolve its position on Brexit. Johnson will fancy his chances of winning with a hard Brexit mandate and pulling back the disaffected conservative base from Farage. It won't work and Labour will be the largest party, but without a majority, and will be forced into a coalition government. The price for coalition will be a second referendum on the terms of the EU exit deal versus remain. Remain will win the second referendum.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits...
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marlon
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1 month ago

Sid wrote:
1 month ago

You don't hear about a left wing brexit because we've got a right wing press that's owned by a handful of billionaires who for the last 3 years have ignored and played down labours socialist manifesto because it would directly affect them and their interests. Farage gets his views aired bedcause his right wing no deal brexit suits them (the part of capital that backs a no deal, most back remain). The fash Mail have been after that for decades. Whereas they're not going to publish Corbyn/Benns arguments for a lexit are they? Or nationalisation, or taxing the rich aka the Rothermeres.

It is now tbf, that's why labour have said they're backing a second ref on the brexit deal. We'll see how that affects the working class vote. Maybe not that much, if it's against a no deal brexit because surely there's not much support for that.

The problem for all parties is... Farage int going away. He said he's going to stand at a general election. If we end up remaining or having a GE before brexit happens, the BP demolishes the tories and takes a huge chunk from labour, and pushes for another ref which he'll get. Also not delivering brexit is strenghtening the right who're talking about treason and destroying the political class. It's not a problem that will be solved by a ref. The future is bleak tbf more so because centrists have absolutely no answers to fascism.
I hate this. How can giving the right what they want be better than fighting them?
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Lazarus
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1 month ago

swampash wrote:
1 month ago
Farage's manner when dealing with the media is more and more reminiscent of Trump. He looks to me like he's being tutored by the alt right. Some investigative journalism urgently needed into links to alt right funding and possible engagement with Bannon.
As for Corbyn, he's a marxist and therefore believes in state ownership of the controlling heights. That can't happen within the EU, so he's for Brexit.

My own perspective on how it pans out, for what it's worth is: Johnson wins the Tory party leadership. Has to shift unequivocally to a crash out Brexit position to head off Farage. No way that will get through Parliament, so we will end up with a general election to break the impasse. This will force Labour to get off the fence and resolve its position on Brexit. Johnson will fancy his chances of winning with a hard Brexit mandate and pulling back the disaffected conservative base from Farage. It won't work and Labour will be the largest party, but without a majority, and will be forced into a coalition government. The price for coalition will be a second referendum on the terms of the EU exit deal versus remain. Remain will win the second referendum.
No need it's been covered Farage is well in with Trump and Bannon and has had contact for years with them. It's not only them though, Bannon has been doing the rounds around Europe for years banging the end times right wing drum. He has lots of support and friends. The thing is these people are amazingly self destructive and are pushing a message that is incredibly hard to make work without looking like exactly what it is, a quick power grab that ends up looking ugly really quick.

The nature of these people means they are incredibly selfish and self serving, they like being the boss and they don't play well with other kids. Just look how well everything is working out for Trump the foundations of his presidency are crumbling all over the place he can't make it work.
"Respect! Respect! Respect Maan! Respect! Respect!........." [-X
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Sid
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1 month ago

marlon wrote:
1 month ago
Sid wrote:
1 month ago

You don't hear about a left wing brexit because we've got a right wing press that's owned by a handful of billionaires who for the last 3 years have ignored and played down labours socialist manifesto because it would directly affect them and their interests. Farage gets his views aired bedcause his right wing no deal brexit suits them (the part of capital that backs a no deal, most back remain). The fash Mail have been after that for decades. Whereas they're not going to publish Corbyn/Benns arguments for a lexit are they? Or nationalisation, or taxing the rich aka the Rothermeres.

It is now tbf, that's why labour have said they're backing a second ref on the brexit deal. We'll see how that affects the working class vote. Maybe not that much, if it's against a no deal brexit because surely there's not much support for that.

The problem for all parties is... Farage int going away. He said he's going to stand at a general election. If we end up remaining or having a GE before brexit happens, the BP demolishes the tories and takes a huge chunk from labour, and pushes for another ref which he'll get. Also not delivering brexit is strenghtening the right who're talking about treason and destroying the political class. It's not a problem that will be solved by a ref. The future is bleak tbf more so because centrists have absolutely no answers to fascism.
I hate this. How can giving the right what they want be better than fighting them?
As if that's what I'm saying. Are you paying attention Marl because I've literally posted examples of how to physically stop fash - because that's the only way. We had a long debate on Rant about this before, when I said it's okay to punch nazis.

I know liberals don't like to hear it but inaction over brexit is galvanising the right, it's fucking clear as day, and your solution of staying in the EU and hoping the problem goes away is bullshit. Farage & fash are here to stay. If we remain, he wins an election and/or pulls the tories far right, and we get another ref.

Marlon, you dodged the question last time, what’s the left wing case for staying in the neolib EU? If liberals could actually provide an answer maybe less people would back Farage
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Sid
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1 month ago

swampash wrote:
1 month ago
Farage's manner when dealing with the media is more and more reminiscent of Trump. He looks to me like he's being tutored by the alt right. Some investigative journalism urgently needed into links to alt right funding and possible engagement with Bannon.
As for Corbyn, he's a marxist and therefore believes in state ownership of the controlling heights. That can't happen within the EU, so he's for Brexit.

My own perspective on how it pans out, for what it's worth is: Johnson wins the Tory party leadership. Has to shift unequivocally to a crash out Brexit position to head off Farage. No way that will get through Parliament, so we will end up with a general election to break the impasse. This will force Labour to get off the fence and resolve its position on Brexit. Johnson will fancy his chances of winning with a hard Brexit mandate and pulling back the disaffected conservative base from Farage. It won't work and Labour will be the largest party, but without a majority, and will be forced into a coalition government. The price for coalition will be a second referendum on the terms of the EU exit deal versus remain. Remain will win the second referendum.
Thank fuck someone else is saying it. I was starting to lose my mind.

That's a decent stab at what might happen, Swamp. But one key bit for me is the Farage / Johnson battle. I just think the only way the tories permanently get rid of Farage whose pulled em far right is to adopt his policies aka deliver a hard brexit. If it doesn't happen now the issue will come back in the future.
sheesh
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1 month ago

This is off topic, but I couldn't be arsed starting a new thread:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/ ... mmy-fallon
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swampash
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1 month ago

What a tosser - never liked his music either, to be honest.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits...
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bman2
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1 month ago

Fuck me that's a damn shame. He's gone full fascist.
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Robbo
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1 month ago

Roll on the 31st of October !!!!
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