martial watch

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Lazarus
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7 months ago

dozer wrote:
bman2 wrote:Salah was Martial’s age when Chelsea offloaded him. 22-23 is far too fucking young to be writing these players off, especially since Martial has already shown so much talent. He’s not Bebe ffs.

But Salah wasn't any good when he was offloaded. Neither was Lukaku and De Bruyne had good players ahead of him.
Martial may become great in about 3 years but until then we're losing out on those extra goals/assists by playing him.
United should just be on good terms with him and sell him with a buyback clause which is expensive enough for the buying club to show incentive to develop him. We spent 63m on crap like Di Maria anyway who hasn't done much even after leaving.

United should never buy very young players, it's usually a liability.
The club's going to splurge on players; why not do it on established stars?



Yeah! Remember that useless fucker Rooney???
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FuB
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7 months ago

Lazarus wrote:
dozer wrote:
bman2 wrote:Salah was Martial’s age when Chelsea offloaded him. 22-23 is far too fucking young to be writing these players off, especially since Martial has already shown so much talent. He’s not Bebe ffs.

But Salah wasn't any good when he was offloaded. Neither was Lukaku and De Bruyne had good players ahead of him.
Martial may become great in about 3 years but until then we're losing out on those extra goals/assists by playing him.
United should just be on good terms with him and sell him with a buyback clause which is expensive enough for the buying club to show incentive to develop him. We spent 63m on crap like Di Maria anyway who hasn't done much even after leaving.

United should never buy very young players, it's usually a liability.
The club's going to splurge on players; why not do it on established stars?



Yeah! Remember that useless fucker Rooney???


forget Rooney... what about that fucking waste of money, Ronaldo. if only Ferguson and the United bean counters had listened to dozer all those years ago we wouldn't have embarrassed ourselves.
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bman2
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7 months ago

dozer wrote:United should never buy very young players, it's usually a liability. The club's going to splurge on players; why not do it on established stars?


I'm certain that the club disagree very strongly with that. Quite apart from tradition and all that, established players are too fucking expensive these days for even the biggest clubs to buy many of them. There's a reason everybody is investing in academies and the like.

Like it or not, even big clubs need to integrate developing players into their squad. Unless you're PSG maybe. It's one reason Jose has changed his tune on young players -- even the top clubs are looking for managers that can work on players who aren't the finished product yet. And we're not even talking about academy players, young players with promise still regularly sell for big money, like Martial, Jesus, Sterling etc. If you wanted to buy them when they were a few years down the line, Coutinho has set the new marker for that.
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dozer
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7 months ago

FuB wrote:
Lazarus wrote:
dozer wrote:
bman2 wrote:Salah was Martial’s age when Chelsea offloaded him. 22-23 is far too fucking young to be writing these players off, especially since Martial has already shown so much talent. He’s not Bebe ffs.

But Salah wasn't any good when he was offloaded. Neither was Lukaku and De Bruyne had good players ahead of him.
Martial may become great in about 3 years but until then we're losing out on those extra goals/assists by playing him.
United should just be on good terms with him and sell him with a buyback clause which is expensive enough for the buying club to show incentive to develop him. We spent 63m on crap like Di Maria anyway who hasn't done much even after leaving.

United should never buy very young players, it's usually a liability.
The club's going to splurge on players; why not do it on established stars?



Yeah! Remember that useless fucker Rooney???


forget Rooney... what about that fucking waste of money, Ronaldo. if only Ferguson and the United bean counters had listened to dozer all those years ago we wouldn't have embarrassed ourselves.

Usually.
If anything you've both proved my point. You only remember Rooney and Ronaldo who we bought 15 years ago. Who else? DDG when he was 20? You've forgotten a lot more. Anderson, Nani, scores of United youth teamers in the last 25 years, and a lot of other shite young transfers I can't remember.

And it was a different time. We could afford to take more chances 10-15 years ago. There were about 2 teams competing for the title and top 4 was never an issue. Fewer points needed to win titles/top 4 too.

Even Lingard who looks like our best youth teamer since the last TWENTY FIVE years has only come good now; he's 25.

Buying very young players for big money is a huge risk and not worth it. Neither for the player nor for us.
The same applies to the likes of City and Chelsea too.
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Sid
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7 months ago

So a young player has to become Rooney or Ronaldo in order to justify their inclusion?

What a load of shite

Nani and Anderson weren't world beaters but they did a job for us, Nani more than did a job tbf
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7 months ago

Sid wrote:So a young player has to become Rooney or Ronaldo in order to justify their inclusion?

What a load of shite

Nani and Anderson weren't world beaters but they did a job for us, Nani more than did a job tbf


It goes further than that in terms of fatuous nonsense. There have been just as many (arguably) high cost 'finished article' players that have failed in the same time period so, ultimately, the argument is just reducible down to 'don't spend too much on any player'... which is just economics
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dozer
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7 months ago

Sid wrote:So a young player has to become Rooney or Ronaldo in order to justify their inclusion?

What a load of shite

Nani and Anderson weren't world beaters but they did a job for us, Nani more than did a job tbf

At least be a matic, Carrick, Evra or even Bailly. Yeah?
Anderson did a job for us? More like he did a job on us. Nani was crap. It's your revisionist nonsense because you don't watch games. You just watch highlights if you think Anderson and Nani were good players for us.

By your standards Phil Jones and smalling did a job for us. Top players, pity our youth team aren't even as good as them.
Last edited by dozer on Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dozer
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7 months ago

FuB wrote:
Sid wrote:So a young player has to become Rooney or Ronaldo in order to justify their inclusion?

What a load of shite

Nani and Anderson weren't world beaters but they did a job for us, Nani more than did a job tbf


It goes further than that in terms of fatuous nonsense. There have been just as many (arguably) high cost 'finished article' players that have failed in the same time period so, ultimately, the argument is just reducible down to 'don't spend too much on any player'... which is just economics

Based on what?
How many teenagers have been top players for us? Rooney, Ronaldo and it was Ronaldo, big luck, not some ordinary person. Any one else?

Anyone in the past decade? I'll give you DDG although he was 20 that was still young and a risk.
The decade previous? Ronaldo and Rooney.

In the meantime we've bought Carrick, Evra, Rio, Vidic, Valencia, Evra, RVP, RVN, Van Der Sar, Ibra etc. I've only listed players most fans would agree that have been good to great signings.

Number of suggested teenagers ranters here want us to buy? Zero.
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FuB
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7 months ago

dozer wrote:
FuB wrote:
Sid wrote:So a young player has to become Rooney or Ronaldo in order to justify their inclusion?

What a load of shite

Nani and Anderson weren't world beaters but they did a job for us, Nani more than did a job tbf


It goes further than that in terms of fatuous nonsense. There have been just as many (arguably) high cost 'finished article' players that have failed in the same time period so, ultimately, the argument is just reducible down to 'don't spend too much on any player'... which is just economics

Based on what?
How many teenagers have been top players for us? Rooney, Ronaldo and it was Ronaldo, big luck, not some ordinary person. Any one else?

Anyone in the past decade? I'll give you DDG although he was 20 that was still young and a risk.
The decade previous? Ronaldo and Rooney.

In the meantime we've bought Carrick, Evra, Rio, Vidic, Valencia, Evra, RVP, RVN, Van Der Sar, Ibra etc. I've only listed players most fans would agree that have been good to great signings.

Number of suggested teenagers ranters here want us to buy? Zero.


dozer, you've revised your argument. I'm pretty sure that Laz and I picked up on this, specifically:

dozer wrote:United should never buy very young players, it's usually a liability. The club's going to splurge on players; why not do it on established stars?


so, now you've gone around the houses to literally agree that, over the last twenty years or so, United have "splurged" - relatively speaking - on two teenagers (Rooney and Ronaldo). Both went on to have pretty stellar careers. You've gracefully - having re-qualified your argument to "teenagers" from "very young" - allowed de Gea into consideration: Very expensive for a non-established goalkeeper at the time and another success story.

The key word - and you highlighted it yourself - is

dozer wrote:USUALLY


it's where your argument falls completely flat for me. the implication is that United are regularly "splurging" unwarranted cash on teenagers/very young players and usually it goes wrong. However, the simple fact of the matter is they haven't been doing so and, over a twenty year period, they've got it right three times.

Yes, there's a fourth player - the subject of this thread - who cost a lot of money and hasn't necessarily justified that so far. Personally, I think he should still be given time. Ronaldo was more show pony than effective for an initial period but he had both the desire and, crucially, the coaching that helped him become the superstar he was and still is.

Even if Martial is ultimately a failure, a 25% failure rate for "splurge" purchases of young players isn't outrageous. I'd say it was roughly equal to the failure rate for established players we've bought over the same period.
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dozer
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7 months ago

Martial isn't the fourth player.
Anderson, Nani (I think), Guiseppe Rossi, Rafael, Fabio, Nick Powell, our youth setup all have failed.
It's hard to remember the crap young players, I'm sure there are a lot more.

United should never buy very young players, it's usually a liability. The club's going to splurge on players; why not do it on established stars?

so, now you've gone around the houses to literally agree that, over the last twenty years or so, United have "splurged" - relatively speaking - on two teenagers (Rooney and Ronaldo). Both went on to have pretty stellar careers.

^^^
I didn't say United splurged on Ronaldo. Rooney yes, and it worked out.
My point is why splurge on very young players when we can splurge on established stars?

United don't buy teenagers yes but that's because they are USUALLY a liability. They may come good in their mid 20s but the success rate is low and if we stick with them, they're a liability in the first few years.

Now the competition is more fierce and we can't risk it on young players. Buy mid 20s players with a good fitness record. Older is also fine. Young players must definitely be the last choice; in fact it shouldn't even happen because United have the cash to get the players they want.
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