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bman2
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8 months ago

dozer wrote:
8 months ago
Sid wrote:
8 months ago
bman2 wrote:
8 months ago
Pochettino, who has yet to claim a trophy in his managerial career, admitted disappointment at this rather meek defeat but suggested trophies would not maintain Spurs’ development as a club. “We are going to create a debate that to win a trophy is going to help the club,” he said. “I don’t agree with that. That only builds your ego. In reality the most important thing is being consistently in the top four and playing in the Champions League.“

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... r-not-cups
'Winning trophies only builds ego' - worrying comments for a club like United that's all about winning trophies. The Glazers will love hearing him prioritise top 4 over silverware though.
What he said applies well to Spurs; he obviously won't think the same at United.
If Spurs won the league cup and finished 6th, it'll obviously mean they are 5 other better teams than them over the season. Since they're a well run club they'll probably finish top 4; it's better than not winning any second rate trophies like the league or the FA cup.
Arsene Wenger got stick from the fans for not doing well, but I;m sure if the board gave him 200m to spend; he'd have done it. He wasn't against buying players; he bought plenty. He couldn't afford top players' transfer fees and wages. He did well with the cards he was dealt. Idk if anyone could have done better. The fans targeted him more than the board which was a mistake. Umery spent more and isn't doing any better than Wenger.
I recognise that Pochettino is only talking about the reality of managing Spurs. And I think what he's accomplished there with a small budget is fantastic. But the way I look at it, it raises the risk that he's a more exciting version of Moyes. Tactically, sure, Pochettino is way more exciting than Moyes. But what about the mentality? Moyes did great work to get Everton to a be a top four, or regularly on the fringes of top 4, club. Arguably even better than Poch's accomplishment, if you're looking at things in a very unemotional, money spent per-league place kind of way. Moyes' top scorers for Everton were the likes of Fellaini and that Ozzie lump ffs. He never even had a decent striker.

But Moyes totally failed to show a change in mentality. Could Poch step up and show a winning mentality? Winning a smaller cup is good practice for winning the league or the CL -- it shows that you can get the players up for it. You need a combination of quality, professional, and the psychological edge to win the big competitions. I'm convinced Poch can manage a side to have consistent quality and professionalism, but can he convince a bunch of millionaire twenty-somethings that winning this match, right now, is the only thing that matters?
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ashleyfuckingyoung
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8 months ago

I think Poch's comments are over-stated. He's talking about Spurs, and in the context of the steer he's obviously been given to get them into the top 4 regularly whilst they absorb the cost of building the new stadium. Its a sad reality of the game that the finances associated with a top 4 finish trump success in either the FA or League Cup.

We're a different club, with different objectives. Winning matters - but there's also a context to that statement too. Mourinho was apparently all about winning. Nothing else mattered - its what drove his approach and we all saw what happened.

For me - what we're about is playing attacking, brave football, whilst promoting youth and buying quality with the considerable resources we have. Get that right, and trophies follow.

I think we'll be in for Poch in the summer. Real could be too. He's going to have a big decision to make - keep doing what he's doing at Spurs, where there's little pressure to win. Or make that step to a bigger club where he'll be backed an have an opportunity to build a winning side - but be under more pressure to deliver trophies.
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Sid
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8 months ago

dozer wrote:
8 months ago
Sid wrote:
8 months ago
bman2 wrote:
8 months ago
Pochettino, who has yet to claim a trophy in his managerial career, admitted disappointment at this rather meek defeat but suggested trophies would not maintain Spurs’ development as a club. “We are going to create a debate that to win a trophy is going to help the club,” he said. “I don’t agree with that. That only builds your ego. In reality the most important thing is being consistently in the top four and playing in the Champions League.“

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... r-not-cups
'Winning trophies only builds ego' - worrying comments for a club like United that's all about winning trophies. The Glazers will love hearing him prioritise top 4 over silverware though.
What he said applies well to Spurs; he obviously won't think the same at United.

If Spurs won the league cup and finished 6th, it'll obviously mean they are 5 other better teams than them over the season. Since they're a well run club they'll probably finish top 4; it's better than not winning any second rate trophies like the league or the FA cup.
Arsene Wenger got stick from the fans for not doing well, but I;m sure if the board gave him 200m to spend; he'd have done it. He wasn't against buying players; he bought plenty. He couldn't afford top players' transfer fees and wages. He did well with the cards he was dealt. Idk if anyone could have done better. The fans targeted him more than the board which was a mistake. Umery spent more and isn't doing any better than Wenger.
It doesn't apply to Tottenham though. Everyone's saying Poch and this top Spurs team need to win a trophy for them to become a Big Club and to put their bottlejob history behind them - so try and win one? Win the FA Cup. Everybody says "oh it's meaningless these days" - and it just isn't. The oldest cup competition in the world isn't ever going to be meaningless. But also if you have to beat top teams to win it, that season it's a top trophy. Like if we beat Arsenal, Chelsea and probably City in the final, that's a top fucking trophy, because we've beaten quality teams to win it.

Wenger didn't need to spend massive money to find and make top players, he bought relative unknowns and rough diamonds, and coached them into top players in an effective system. But then that system became well known and he didn't adapt, and he couldn't identify potential top players anymore, so he became obsolete. He signed the same player 47 times and had no answers to how vulnerable they were in 14 attempts since their last title. Compare that to Klopp who also plays creative attacking football, and in 2 seasons has managed to sort out their vulnerabilities and are now favourites for the title.
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Sid
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8 months ago

bman2 wrote:
8 months ago
dozer wrote:
8 months ago
Sid wrote:
8 months ago
bman2 wrote:
8 months ago
Pochettino, who has yet to claim a trophy in his managerial career, admitted disappointment at this rather meek defeat but suggested trophies would not maintain Spurs’ development as a club. “We are going to create a debate that to win a trophy is going to help the club,” he said. “I don’t agree with that. That only builds your ego. In reality the most important thing is being consistently in the top four and playing in the Champions League.“

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... r-not-cups
'Winning trophies only builds ego' - worrying comments for a club like United that's all about winning trophies. The Glazers will love hearing him prioritise top 4 over silverware though.
What he said applies well to Spurs; he obviously won't think the same at United.
If Spurs won the league cup and finished 6th, it'll obviously mean they are 5 other better teams than them over the season. Since they're a well run club they'll probably finish top 4; it's better than not winning any second rate trophies like the league or the FA cup.
Arsene Wenger got stick from the fans for not doing well, but I;m sure if the board gave him 200m to spend; he'd have done it. He wasn't against buying players; he bought plenty. He couldn't afford top players' transfer fees and wages. He did well with the cards he was dealt. Idk if anyone could have done better. The fans targeted him more than the board which was a mistake. Umery spent more and isn't doing any better than Wenger.
I recognise that Pochettino is only talking about the reality of managing Spurs. And I think what he's accomplished there with a small budget is fantastic. But the way I look at it, it raises the risk that he's a more exciting version of Moyes. Tactically, sure, Pochettino is way more exciting than Moyes. But what about the mentality? Moyes did great work to get Everton to a be a top four, or regularly on the fringes of top 4, club. Arguably even better than Poch's accomplishment, if you're looking at things in a very unemotional, money spent per-league place kind of way. Moyes' top scorers for Everton were the likes of Fellaini and that Ozzie lump ffs. He never even had a decent striker.

But Moyes totally failed to show a change in mentality. Could Poch step up and show a winning mentality? Winning a smaller cup is good practice for winning the league or the CL -- it shows that you can get the players up for it. You need a combination of quality, professional, and the psychological edge to win the big competitions. I'm convinced Poch can manage a side to have consistent quality and professionalism, but can he convince a bunch of millionaire twenty-somethings that winning this match, right now, is the only thing that matters?
That's a good point. One thing fans perhaps underestimate is how a manager is prone to shitting himself when he gets in the chair, and the seasons expectations are win every single trophy, win every home game, win the derbies, and look good while doing it. It's a massive shift in mentality from Spurs whose objectives are top 4 hook or by crook, and maybe win a domestic trophy but don't break your neck trying. Even Jose struggled with these expectations, like he did at Madrid. When Keane told the bus driver to stop fucking moaning he also said the club is too big for him. It's true.

Whereas for Ole right now it's a lot easier because he's a caretaker so there's no long term responsibility, the season's already ruined because of Jose, we've had 2 and a half years of hoofball so simple things like every pass is celebrated with delirious fucking joy, and everybody loves him because his goal won us the treble. So he can play more free and take more risks. Like against Arsenal when he made 2 attacking subs at 2-1. In that scenario Mourinho, Poch, Gaal, Moyes all park the bus and see the game out. Late Fergie probably does too. But Ole wanted more goals.

But here's the thing, Ole's mentality will have to change next season too - especially because he's done so well this season and is beating top 6 teams. And I wouldn't expect a lot of new signings to help him out when the Glazers see us beating second placed Tottenham away with what we already have.
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Sid
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8 months ago

Ole speaking the like the permanent manager

"We have a vision and a picture of how we want to look in a few years. We have to think long term but also short term. I have a picture of how I think this Man United team will look in a couple of years."

He's won manager of the month n all
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bman2
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8 months ago

He shouldn't get ahead of himself. Get to March with respectable results, and he'll be in a strong position.
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Sid
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8 months ago

bman2 wrote:
8 months ago
He shouldn't get ahead of himself. Get to March with respectable results, and he'll be in a strong position.
I think he's done half the job by being great in the Prem against all kinds of opposition. The other half is how he does in the CL. You can see us being a bit naive with our attacking football and Ole's lack of CL experience. If so then Woodward will have food for thought. Like Poch is also great in the Prem but also has a lot of CL experience. We'll see. We managed to play a proper CL game against Tottenham away.
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FuB
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8 months ago

I don't think he's getting ahead of himself. We've suffered from this ridiculous turnover of shit manager after shit manager and the inevitable short-termism that's brought with it. Regardless of whether he's looking to stay in the job, is already likely to get it, whatever... he's absolutely right to carry on as if he's in there for the long term. The whole concept of steadying the ship works much better if there's a suggestion of longevity and long term planning involved. Even if he doesn't get the job full time, he'd be a fucking great choice for the DoF role given he's already talking about a vision of the club in two, three years time. That's what we all wanted... an identity and plan that embodied what the team was about.
I may be able to fix a forum but I can't fix a fuckwit
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Lazarus
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8 months ago

He's passed the audition already for me.
"Respect! Respect! Respect Maan! Respect! Respect!........." [-X
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bman2
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8 months ago

FuB wrote:
8 months ago
I don't think he's getting ahead of himself. We've suffered from this ridiculous turnover of shit manager after shit manager and the inevitable short-termism that's brought with it. Regardless of whether he's looking to stay in the job, is already likely to get it, whatever... he's absolutely right to carry on as if he's in there for the long term. The whole concept of steadying the ship works much better if there's a suggestion of longevity and long term planning involved. Even if he doesn't get the job full time, he'd be a fucking great choice for the DoF role given he's already talking about a vision of the club in two, three years time. That's what we all wanted... an identity and plan that embodied what the team was about.
I wonder if he’d be wasted in the DoF role. Anyway I’m loving stuff too and want to believe. I’m just being prudent. So far Ole seems like a safer bet on taking a punt on yet another manager with a big reputation. But 10 matches isn’t that long. It’s a short-termist business. If PSG, Chelsea, and City fuck us up, people will be feeling differently in a few weeks’ time. Losing I can accept, it’ll be the manner of our losing and our responses that will affect my judgment.

I love Ole. But it’s been 5 years of sad wanking. I’m not going to marry the first tart that makes my United Johnson feel alive again.
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