A rebuild?

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bman2
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5 months ago

De Gea -- time to sell?
Romero -- OK to be first choice for a season
Lee Grant -- FFS
Pereira — what's his story, backup to Romero for a season?

Lindelof -- OK
Bailly — shite
Jones — shite
Smalling — OK, squaddie, can't play football
Rojo — shite
Shaw — OK
Young — shite, squaddie for one more season
Dalot — OK, let's see
Darmian — FFS
Valencia — FFS

Matic — OK, not the future
Pogba — Sell if not committed. He needs to see a future at United, fair enough, he only has one career to live.
Fred — OK, let's see
Herrera — gone already
McTominary — OK, let's see
Mata — let him go
Pereira — let him go

Martial — the bill is past due
Sanchez — FFS
Lingard — OK squaddie, though overpaid
Lukaku — not good enough, but not our biggest problem
Rashford — definitely hold onto


It's not pretty reading is it? And no, i'm not referring to the thread title. Fucking autocorrect.
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ashleyfuckingyoung
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5 months ago

Apart from that we're OK.....

We absolutely need a rebuild. If De Gea's heads gone, then he should go, with our thanks. I'm not a massive Romero fan, but he could probably hold the fort for a year. Similarly, Pogba needs to go too. I've had enough.

We need a Centre Back, Right Back, Centre Mid and Right Winger. Get those 4 in, with as much quality as we possibly can. 3-4 More then following summer.

We can't rebuild in a single summer.

But its moot anyway. I don't think we have the appetite or the capability to rebuild this club into a top force, under the current regime.
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Sid
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5 months ago

The Glazers don't have the appetite or infrastructure, we'll probably have to wait until Klopp and Guardiola have fucked off in order to compete again
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Pikey McScum
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5 months ago

What is a rebuild though?

Just my view, but in the past few windows we've spunked money at big-name players and not made any real progress - just enough to stem a complete rot. I'm not a fan of these rumours linking us with players like Bale again; way too much money, and no re-sale value. If we were to go in for someone like him now we'd be laughed at by the rest of Europe (even more so!).

I'd rather we just cut our losses and started recruiting exciting youth players - within the current squad players like Rashford, McTominay (and now Dalot) have shown what they can do when given a chance, and just look at the success Ajax are having (not to mention the football they can play!).

If it's going to take us years to catch up with Barca, why not make those years worthwhile - get some exciting talent in, start the team afresh and we might just have a team to be proud of again.
"that is probably the worst post ive ever read" - Knobby, 28th April 2015
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bman2
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4 months ago

Pikey McScum wrote:
5 months ago
What is a rebuild though?

Just my view, but in the past few windows we've spunked money at big-name players and not made any real progress - just enough to stem a complete rot. I'm not a fan of these rumours linking us with players like Bale again; way too much money, and no re-sale value. If we were to go in for someone like him now we'd be laughed at by the rest of Europe (even more so!).

I'd rather we just cut our losses and started recruiting exciting youth players - within the current squad players like Rashford, McTominay (and now Dalot) have shown what they can do when given a chance, and just look at the success Ajax are having (not to mention the football they can play!).

If it's going to take us years to catch up with Barca, why not make those years worthwhile - get some exciting talent in, start the team afresh and we might just have a team to be proud of again.
I agree. No old geezers any more. And we need players that want to play for the club. We shouldn't outbid our competition for signings -- we want players that are willing to earn a little bit less (which is obviously still a fuckload) because they want to be at United rather than Chelsea or wherever else. Di Maria is the epitome of everything we've done wrong: paying a fortune for some prick who never wanted to be here. And it looks like we've made a lot of similar signings, even if the others are not quite as flagrantly absurd as that one.

That's what City do. They pay their players very well, obviously, but they've been good at getting motivated players.
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Sid
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4 months ago

bman2 wrote:
4 months ago
Pikey McScum wrote:
5 months ago
What is a rebuild though?

Just my view, but in the past few windows we've spunked money at big-name players and not made any real progress - just enough to stem a complete rot. I'm not a fan of these rumours linking us with players like Bale again; way too much money, and no re-sale value. If we were to go in for someone like him now we'd be laughed at by the rest of Europe (even more so!).

I'd rather we just cut our losses and started recruiting exciting youth players - within the current squad players like Rashford, McTominay (and now Dalot) have shown what they can do when given a chance, and just look at the success Ajax are having (not to mention the football they can play!).

If it's going to take us years to catch up with Barca, why not make those years worthwhile - get some exciting talent in, start the team afresh and we might just have a team to be proud of again.
I agree. No old geezers any more. And we need players that want to play for the club. We shouldn't outbid our competition for signings -- we want players that are willing to earn a little bit less (which is obviously still a fuckload) because they want to be at United rather than Chelsea or wherever else. Di Maria is the epitome of everything we've done wrong: paying a fortune for some prick who never wanted to be here. And it looks like we've made a lot of similar signings, even if the others are not quite as flagrantly absurd as that one.

That's what City do. They pay their players very well, obviously, but they've been good at getting motivated players.
There's the Tottenham model for wages, were, because they can't compete with us, Chelsea, City etc they pay a 'small' wage comparatively and if you want to earn more it's done through bonuses and milestones (25 goals scored etc). it's kept them hungry for 3 or 4 years. Difficult thing to do as well when the squad hasn't changed very much.
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Lazarus
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4 months ago

We could stay away from Raiola for a start.
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bman2
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4 months ago

Good article in The Times by Henry Winter, someone on reddit posted the text:

Show me the money.

If a club’s owners — like the Glazers at Manchester United — are primarily driven by the acquisition of wealth, even to the extent that any anguish at missing out on trophies is softened by the profits rolling in, it should be no surprise that certain players, and particularly their agents, view the club as a cash cow.

The culture at United needs addressing, so that football’s primacy is reasserted over financial imperatives. When United fans rail against players depicted as mercenaries, especially in the febrile aftermath of Sunday’s surrender to Everton, they also understand that these players reflect a materialistic mindset associated with the Glazers.

The Glazers don’t care about the football; they care about the business, and are rarely seen enjoying this august sporting institution. They don’t know how the fans feel or sense their hopes and fears. They don’t know the history, the philosophy, the values of this great club. For all Martin Edwards’s flaws, few would beat the former United chairman in a quiz on United’s history, or on his attendance home and away. The Glazers were not raised dreaming of Best, Law and Charlton but of dollars, quarters and dimes.

The Glazers are passing through, treating Old Trafford like one of their shopping malls, listening only to the ringing tills not the cries of the crowd. Since using United money in a leveraged takeover completed in 2005, the Florida-based family are widely reported to have taken out more than £1 billion in interest, costs, dividends and fees while the club’s value has soared from a valuation of £790 million in 2005 to £2.9 billion, KPMG’s considered estimate in May last year. England’s most famous football club is registered in the Cayman Islands.

Think Glazers, think money. Those wanting to write to the club about tickets or performances, and feverishly typing “Manchester United address” into Google are first directed to “5 Stratton Street, Mayfair, London”, their commercial hub — the lair of Ed Woodward, the Glazers’ money man and the executive vice-chairman.
It is, of course, typical of the Glazers that their de facto director of football is Woodward, a former investment banker with JP Morgan, accountant at PricewaterhouseCoopers and now master of the universe at sweating the United brand. Ole Gunnar Solskjaer’s players are then used to lend allure and authenticity to the trade.

United have 25 official global partners including an official paint partner with “a shared ideology of both pleasing our customers and bringing a wealth of colours to their lives. Repaint the past, reach your dreams”. The advertising is shaped around paintings of Marcus Rashford, Romelu Lukaku and David De Gea. Show me the players.

United boast an official vision partner, with De Gea and Paul Pogba posing moodily magnificent in sunglasses — “designed to change the way you see the world”. Their official denim partner has Anthony Martial joining Pogba and the ubiquitous De Gea in modelling the denim “steeped in rule-breaking history”. De Gea, again, and Alexis Sánchez are in the latest tyre partner deal: “Performance. There are no shortcuts.” Good advice. Rashford, Pogba and Lukaku front United’s official car partner campaign: “You, the Red Army, is what drives us”. Even an approved betting app involves Lukaku, Sánchez and Jesse Lingard. Nemanja Matic, Juan Mata and Lingard sip official coffee at Carrington, the United training ground: “Let’s go Reds.”

The shopping list goes on and on. All elite clubs have such lucrative marketing arrangements, and this money-making predates the Glazers at United, but it has grown from a machine to a juggernaut, and more than one player has confided a frustration at the commercial demands on them, especially on pre-season tours.

So is it any wonder that the players, and their representatives, chase top dollar in their own contract renegotiations when all the talk at the club is about the latest partner, when they see the club raking it in? The players contribute so much to the global marketing of United, to swelling the Glazers’ coffers, that they want a chunk of the action, as certain headlines over wage demands recently highlighted. United has become too much about the money, and not enough about the football.

For all the understandable disgust over the Glazers’ debt-driven approach towards running the club, it is not the lack of expenditure that is the problem — as the Glazers have backed their managers with more than £800 million on players since Sir Alex Ferguson retired in 2013 — but the lack of thought to the expenditure. There is no theme to the spending, no planning, no adherence to any footballing philosophy. Young or old? Prospect or established? United splash out like lottery winners, not shrewd investors. It is why their squad is so large and unbalanced. Ole’s at the wheel of a cut-and-shut.

It seems remarkably naive that such established commercial folk as the Glazers cannot see that their prized asset would become even more effective and profitable if they used their money more wisely. They seem dazzled by the buoyant bottom line.

So this is where anybody who cares about United will appreciate that Solskjaer, for all his inexperience as a manager, and what may prove a painful process of learning on the job, has to be supported unconditionally. Because Solskjaer represents values that United have lost under the Glazers. “Show me the money” is anathema to this personable, level-headed Norwegian with a strong moral compass. He not only needs to rebuild the squad but also the culture — and he knows it.

After United’s humbling at Goodison Park, Solskjaer marched over to that phenomenal away support, waved apologetically, turned around while walking back and again signalled his appreciation of their loyalty and his contrition on behalf of his team. The applause for Solskjaer intensified from this powerful group, making the point that they held the players accountable, not the manager. Most can also see the damage inflicted by the money-driven culture loved by the Glazers. Many have campaigned against the owners.

So, a few thoughts on some of the issues around Solskjaer:
  • The timing of his permanent appointment? Too early? No. Those long calling for the club to be better at planning must see that it makes sense for Solskjaer to start his work now. I’ve had one private conversation with him since his permanent appointment and what was abundantly clear was his understanding of the scale of the task and his hunger to tackle it. Let him get going. If some players have lost momentum, that says everything about their character, not Solskjaer’s.

    The retrospective romanticising of the José Mourinho era has to stop. Mourinho’s questioning of Pogba and the need for a centre back were logical then, and most people were saying it, yet it should be recalled that Mourinho had turned the atmosphere at Carrington toxic. He was running out of people to throw under the bus and the football was mind-numbing.

    Listen to Gary Neville. The former United defender makes so many good points about the players, about the shirt, the work-rate, about City’s greater hunger and superior recruitment, that Woodward, as well as the dressing room, should listen.

    Talk of Woodward finally appointing a director of football is encouraging, especially as it allows him to return to the commercial world, but with respect to Mike Phelan, one of the names mentioned, it has to be somebody such as Paul Mitchell or Marc Overmars who can take a cold-eyed look at the squad, offload underperforming stars and then use an extensive contacts book to bring in the right, thrusting young players. With apologies to supporters of West Ham United, Crystal Palace and Borussia Dortmund, Declan Rice, Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Jadon Sancho, respectively, are obvious upgrades. This is United we are talking about and the lure to join must inevitably be strong.

    Believe in the squad. There is ambition still there, in the likes of Scott McTominay, Rashford, Lingard, Victor Lindelof and Chris Smalling, for all his occasional mistakes, and the next generation of Mason Greenwood and James Garner. De Gea needs a new contract, Martial some tactical fine-tuning and Pogba simply needs challenging. Solskjaer’s first job at United was a determination to put the smile back on Pogba’s face, and bring the best out of him, and that was seen, especially with some link-ups with Rashford.

    Resist talk of immediately rebuilding Old Trafford, which certainly looks frayed in parts, especially through the prism of reporters viewing from the press box at the new Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. But seriously, United’s first priority is not rebuilding the stadium, but rebuilding the squad — and the culture.
Show me the old United.
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Lazarus
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4 months ago

"Talk of Woodward finally appointing a director of football is encouraging, especially as it allows him to return to the commercial world, but with respect to Mike Phelan, one of the names mentioned, it has to be somebody such as Paul Mitchell or Marc Overmars who can take a cold-eyed look at the squad, offload underperforming stars and then use an extensive contacts book to bring in the right, thrusting young players. With apologies to supporters of West Ham United, Crystal Palace and Borussia Dortmund, Declan Rice, Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Jadon Sancho, respectively, are obvious upgrades. This is United we are talking about and the lure to join must inevitably be strong."

Again, why kick Phelan? Have United approached Mitchell or Overmars? And how does Winter know who to go for (Rice, Bissaka, Sancho) but somehow this is beyond Phelan? Hey why doesn't Phelan read what Winter wrote and do that!!!! Genius! Thank god Winter had all those years in football or we'd be fucked........
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bman2
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4 months ago

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/04/23/man-utds-squad-culture-rotten-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-latest/
In true Glazer style, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was appointed as a kind of sales rep of the month. After some brand-boosting returns, Manchester United jumped at the easiest option without exhausting the other possibilities.

But United’s problem is not Solskjaer, a stand-up guy who represents everything the club is meant to be about. United supporters must be asking themselves: when the Glazers and Ed Woodward, their boss on ground, awarded Solskjaer a permanent contract on 28 March, did they first establish that Mauricio Pochettino and others were completely ‘un-gettable’? Was it really a “thorough process,” or did they just like Solskjaer’s numbers and the smiles on everyone’s faces?

Again, though, United’s malaise does not start in the manager’s office. Forget the smiles. On Jose Mourinho’s face the truth about this squad showed as anger. In Solskjaer’s features you can see shock that United players can be so passive, so unprofessional. The hardest thing for a manager to observe is a rotten squad culture, and United have one, which requires a purge of the sort the club are ill-equipped to pursue.

There is no wish to rewrite Mourinho’s time at United, which was grim, but Solskajer’s predecessor was right about one thing. There is something rotten in Peter Schmeichel’s old state of Denmark. This is not intuition. It can be proved.

When Solskjaer lifted the cloud of Mourinho’s negativity, United proceeded to win eight consecutive away games in all competitions for the first time in their history. What a road trip. Solskjaer scored 14 wins and two draws in his first 19 games. Woodward called the new manager’s permanent appointment “richly deserved” without stopping to wonder how the players would then respond to this easing of the pressure and the return of the United grin.

Cut to today, where they have lost six of their past eight games in all competitions and are back to sixth in the table, where Mourinho left them. The 4-0 defeat at Everton - a shockingly negligent display - was their fifth consecutive away loss, matching Dave Sexton’s run in 1981. Eleven games without a clean sheet is their worst since 1998.

This pattern is consistent with the six years since Sir Alex Ferguson retired - and Solskjaer is merely the latest victim of an ethos gone wrong. You cannot in one phase from December to April win eight consecutive away games and then lose six from eight unless the players are picking and choosing when to apply themselves.

Serious teams do not perform the way United did at Goodison Park on Sunday. The senior players, the leaders, do not allow it. Or, if it happens once or twice, they stop it with a truth and reconciliation session which the manager has no need to be at. That way, a failing side corrects itself.

But United’s mode for six years has been to look busy, disengage, look busy again and then disengage once more according to how much they like the manager, how their contract talks are going and how much they can be bothered to chase superior teams: Manchester City, Liverpool, Spurs, and, recently and painfully, Barcelona in Europe.

Solskjaer thought he could halt this contagion by reviving the Ferguson era, but now sees the decadence in his dressing room. “If you want to play at this club it has to mean more,” he said at Everton: a seminal remark that ends the buddy-act between him and his players, who probably thought he would be a nice easy guv’nor. Mourinho went further, lacerating individuals and team alike. Dismay - and sometimes disdain - laced his assessment of the maturity and professionalism of some of his players, several of whom, it should be said, were brought in on his watch.

The sense is that after Mourinho’s sacking the players clocked back on but then lost interest again when Solskjaer was appointed full-time and maintaining the good run started to feel like hard work. But then we ought to try seeing it through their eyes for the sake of balance. First, they know United are oceans behind City and Liverpool, and that the squad is weak after six years of impetuous recruiting. And the bad decisions continue. A cosy new four-year deal for Phil Jones set off alarms that rang louder than ever at Barcelona and Everton.

When United’s best players look up to the corporate level, they see a deal-making factory. When they look sideways, they see team-mates who are fourth-in-the-Premier League at best. To them, Alexis Sanchez must be emblematic of a shallow, capricious transfer strategy. The household names - David de Gea, Paul Pogba - must feel mired in mediocrity, to which their current performances are adding. Lesser lights may consider it a thankless task to match the great United sides of the past when there is no leadership and insufficient star quality to compete with City and Liverpool.

Solskjaer can’t change this ennui, so he has to change the players; he has to start again, with a clear-out of eight to 10 passengers and a search for two top centre-halves, and world-class creative and deep midfielders. In all those areas United are average-to-poor, by their standards. But to pull this off, Solskjaer needs owners who accept how badly the recent past has been managed, and what the future should look like.

Alas, a flawed culture starts at the top.
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