Coronavirus

[FuB]

But the eat out to help out was botched. The study said it should have been 7 days a week, not 5, to stop places being packed out.

Some people are always gonna be selfish and dumb so the gov has to account for that. It's basic stuff like ordering enough tests, making test & trace mandatory or else every study / expert says it's pointless, stopping shops allowing people to buy 30 bog rolls etc. But they were disinterested at worst and hapless at best.

The Tories have treat the coronavirus crisis like a PR crisis. Shit like the 50m masks they ordered were unusable (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... e-used-nhs) they just ordered em to quieten the flak, so they can go in front of the cameras and say "we've spent 225m on PPE" to look like they're in control

Anyway coronavirus looks to be out of control again according to experts https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... tudy-shows

hmmm...

There is no "if you want a test, you can have one" setup here. If you want a test you have to be showing symptoms or pay for a private test (80 euros). Tracing here has always relied on people's memory... the app they came up with (without fucking it up completely like the UK) still didn't really happen because people decided privacy concerns were more important than giving a shit about other people (as i've said, it's FAR from perfect here too). However, tracing and testing here has relied upon a truly competent epidemiology and testing system. I don't know how "mandatory" it has been here, really... i suspect it's just relied upon the fact that people give a shit about their own health and there's still a catholic hangover of giving a shit about other people to a certain degree.

I do think you need to stop giving quite so much responsibility to the tories. That's a great fucking cop out that all the selfish cunts driving this epidemic will happily go with, mate. Can't ever be "MY" fault: it's the others, it's the government, it's the EU, it's immigrants... blah fucking blah... I'll still go down the shops without a mask because it's "my right".

[bman2]

So it's spreading again. 3,000 ish new infections a day since Sunday. Over 3k today.

Birmingham in lockdown. Households can't socialise outside their families but they can still go to Costa or the pub.

How are the Tories still in power

Echoing fatty's reply to you in the transfer thread... you can't just blame the tories for this. You know i hate them as much as you do so don't take this as a tory apologist comment... their attitude and mismanagement of this whole thing just beggars belief.

however, the whole deal goes from the bottom to the top. selfish cunts voting in selfish cunts who govern selfishly. it's the same selfish cunts who are refusing to wear masks, behaving like dickheads and spouting all the pseudoscience that are just as responsible for the rising numbers as the party they put in power showing they couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag.

numbers have been rising here in Italy as well but they've been at a fairly consistent level of new cases for weeks and weeks since the initial rise in cases over the summer. a rise in cases was always to be expected but it's only going to be controlled by people's attitudes and behaviour. mask-wearing and cleaning your hands at the entrance and exit to anywhere open to the public has never been an issue here since the beginning and the number of denial dickheads is a very extreme minority. i've seen some behaviour that has made me wonder just how we've managed to keep the numbers at a manageable level sometimes but it doesn't seem to be even a distant echo of the sort of fuckwittery i'm told about and read about happening in britain right now.

This. People listened to lockdown rules at first surprisingly well. But when Cummings went to visit his parents, it set a precedence. The research backs it up. The gov are meant to lead by example but they regularly flouted the rules - while tens of thousands of family members never saw their loved ones again.

There's this manufactured blasé attitude of oh well thousands were always gonna die. Bollocks. New Zealand saw what was happening abroad and went in to lockdown early - and only 24 people have died. They've spared thousands of lives while we edge closer to an effective treatment / cure. And their economy is in better shape than ours.

Everyone says the Tories only care about the economy. But they're destroying it. Cos they ignored the evidence it meant we needed a super lockdown which has ruined many businesses already. But then they fucked up the tests (where are the 500k tests a day they promised). And now they've fucked up the easing of lockdown (test & trace is dead, eat out to help out spread the virus https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/eat-out- ... n-22665690)

So now we've got the worst of both worlds: 60,000 + dead and a tanking economy as we go back into another lockdown which will kill a load more businesses

Again, aside from the political side of this which i don't for a second deny or argue against, i do still feel the root of the problem is in people's behaviour and attitudes.

You cite "eat out to help out" as a cause but that's, again, only down to the way people behave within that concept. I've been out for dinner with friends here at various different places quite a number of times since the end of June. The rules are clear: MANDATORY mask-wearing when moving around (i.e. entering, exiting, paying, going for a piss), mandatory hand-cleaning stations at entrances to restaurants/bars, oftentimes there is a cleaning station/hand-gel availability at the cash desk and these are very often set up with perspex barriers between the staff at the till and the paying public, with small gaps to allow you to present your - preferably - contactless card at the POS machine and type your PIN. Distancing is required between tables and when moving around. There are also quite a few restaurants dissuading you from having a printed menu and offering you a menu via QR code you can scan with your phone. The point I'm making here being that, well, it's NOT FUCKING HARD to come up with a workable system but it does require people's buy-in.

Again, i'd say it's far from perfect here but I don't think we can really expect perfect anywhere, especially when the western world has long been dumbing down its public by cutting down on science education, leaving itself horribly open to pseudoscience fuckwits online to appear "credible" to the uneducated masses.

With that in mind, I'd urge all of you who can find 30 mins to watch this:



... and anything else he's ever put up. This guy is a hero of mine, really. A well-respected science journalist and a very rare voice showing how actually checking your fucking facts can render pretty much all the bullshit online nowadays as the lies, hearsay and misunderstanding it generally is. That particular video was just published and shows how the criticism of the WHO, especially by Trump, is largely unfair and, at worse, deliberate bollocks.

That’s an excellent t video, FuB, thanks for linking it. The guy really made a great effort to look into the facts. It’s a shame actual journalists rarely make the same effort.

The attacks on WHO are very similar to the techniques the new right used against the EU. They realized that you can get away with saying anything at all about these international organizations, because people don’t understand them, the movies give you the impression that they’re really powerful when they’re anything but. The organizations are usually just civil servants, they don’t have the same PR teams and newspapers and news channels ready to obey orders, so it’s a very lopsided fight.

[bman2]

Are for the Tories, yeah they’re probably doing worst than most. That twat being caught driving round the countryside and not resigning was particularly bad, when they’d already made an actual scientist resign for seeing his girlfriend. That definitely sends the message that Covid rules are just for suckers.

I don’t think any government or organization can handle it perfectly. But there needs to be a good faith effort and a commitment to shared sacrifice.

[FuB]

That’s an excellent t video, FuB, thanks for linking it. The guy really made a great effort to look into the facts. It’s a shame actual journalists rarely make the same effort.

The attacks on WHO are very similar to the techniques the new right used against the EU. They realized that you can get away with saying anything at all about these international organizations, because people don’t understand them, the movies give you the impression that they’re really powerful when they’re anything but. The organizations are usually just civil servants, they don’t have the same PR teams and newspapers and news channels ready to obey orders, so it’s a very lopsided fight.

I should make clear that he's an ex-BBC/New Scientist/Lancet/Guardian/Telegraph/Independant journalist of quite some standing : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Had ... ournalist)

...people don't understand them: well, yes, but the bigger issue is that people don't care to fact check things. They don't really have the interest or intellect to bother or know how to do so. This is the real crime against humanity because a better education system that cared about teaching rational thought and attention to detail might have had a chance of preventing this.

[FuB]

Are for the Tories, yeah they’re probably doing worst than most. That twat being caught driving round the countryside and not resigning was particularly bad, when they’d already made an actual scientist resign for seeing his girlfriend. That definitely sends the message that Covid rules are just for suckers.

I don’t think any government or organization can handle it perfectly. But there needs to be a good faith effort and a commitment to shared sacrifice.

That's what i'm saying... i'm all for bashing the tories but this is exposing more than their own selfishness

[Sid]

There's a lot to get through on here and I'll try to do it tomorrow

I've just seen France have recorded 10,561 new infections. It was 9,843 yesterday. This is relevant cos the gov said we're 4 weeks behind them.

So, another lockdown then? Ffs

[Sid]

But the eat out to help out was botched. The study said it should have been 7 days a week, not 5, to stop places being packed out.

Some people are always gonna be selfish and dumb so the gov has to account for that. It's basic stuff like ordering enough tests, making test & trace mandatory or else every study / expert says it's pointless, stopping shops allowing people to buy 30 bog rolls etc. But they were disinterested at worst and hapless at best.

The Tories have treat the coronavirus crisis like a PR crisis. Shit like the 50m masks they ordered were unusable (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... e-used-nhs) they just ordered em to quieten the flak, so they can go in front of the cameras and say "we've spent 225m on PPE" to look like they're in control

Anyway coronavirus looks to be out of control again according to experts https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... tudy-shows

hmmm...

There is no "if you want a test, you can have one" setup here. If you want a test you have to be showing symptoms or pay for a private test (80 euros). Tracing here has always relied on people's memory... the app they came up with (without fucking it up completely like the UK) still didn't really happen because people decided privacy concerns were more important than giving a shit about other people (as i've said, it's FAR from perfect here too). However, tracing and testing here has relied upon a truly competent epidemiology and testing system. I don't know how "mandatory" it has been here, really... i suspect it's just relied upon the fact that people give a shit about their own health and there's still a catholic hangover of giving a shit about other people to a certain degree.

I do think you need to stop giving quite so much responsibility to the tories. That's a great fucking cop out that all the selfish cunts driving this epidemic will happily go with, mate. Can't ever be "MY" fault: it's the others, it's the government, it's the EU, it's immigrants... blah fucking blah... I'll still go down the shops without a mask because it's "my right".

No right, selfish cunts are selfish cunts. But a basic function of a government is to counter people's selfishness and act. Like people get selfish all the time. But there's rules in place to stop selfish acts.

Like during the panic buying, the gov just looked on and said well that's terrible as shops ran out of essentials. And yeah the selfish cunts are to blame. But the gov should have brought in a rule that said shops can only sell so many bog rolls per person. To not expect this is letting the gov off the hook.

Seems to me like you're falling a bit for the government spin of blaming various groups. Like now they're blaming young people for the recent outbreak even though it's been heavily linked to gov policy, before that it was immigrants, before that it was selfish poor BAME people being packed in to cramped houses etc. These narratives, often created round a table by a group of ministers like Cummings, are designed to deflect and distract.

This article while absolving individuals of blame (which I don't agree with) talks about behavioural science. It's interesting. Covid-idiots aren't so much to blame for the spread, rather poor people being forced back to work aka gov policy

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ment-greek

[Sid]

That’s an excellent t video, FuB, thanks for linking it. The guy really made a great effort to look into the facts. It’s a shame actual journalists rarely make the same effort.

The attacks on WHO are very similar to the techniques the new right used against the EU. They realized that you can get away with saying anything at all about these international organizations, because people don’t understand them, the movies give you the impression that they’re really powerful when they’re anything but. The organizations are usually just civil servants, they don’t have the same PR teams and newspapers and news channels ready to obey orders, so it’s a very lopsided fight.

I should make clear that he's an ex-BBC/New Scientist/Lancet/Guardian/Telegraph/Independant journalist of quite some standing : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Had ... ournalist)

...people don't understand them: well, yes, but the bigger issue is that people don't care to fact check things. They don't really have the interest or intellect to bother or know how to do so. This is the real crime against humanity because a better education system that cared about teaching rational thought and attention to detail might have had a chance of preventing this.

People don't have time to fact check, Fub. I've got a 10 month old and some days I don't even have time to eat an actual meal. It's the gov's job to get the message across. They have the finances, outreach, power etc to reach virtually every person in the UK.

The ignorant people that don't fact check... Are in government. They have access to the greatest medical minds, top scientists, the latest data - I don't, but they do - and the gov ignored em and their pleas. They thought it was like the flu. So then we had a rushed lockdown and the rest is history.

And yeah no gov can handle it perfectly but there's a vast difference between 60k + dead in the UK and 24 in New Zealand

[FuB]

But the eat out to help out was botched. The study said it should have been 7 days a week, not 5, to stop places being packed out.

Some people are always gonna be selfish and dumb so the gov has to account for that. It's basic stuff like ordering enough tests, making test & trace mandatory or else every study / expert says it's pointless, stopping shops allowing people to buy 30 bog rolls etc. But they were disinterested at worst and hapless at best.

The Tories have treat the coronavirus crisis like a PR crisis. Shit like the 50m masks they ordered were unusable (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... e-used-nhs) they just ordered em to quieten the flak, so they can go in front of the cameras and say "we've spent 225m on PPE" to look like they're in control

Anyway coronavirus looks to be out of control again according to experts https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... tudy-shows

hmmm...

There is no "if you want a test, you can have one" setup here. If you want a test you have to be showing symptoms or pay for a private test (80 euros). Tracing here has always relied on people's memory... the app they came up with (without fucking it up completely like the UK) still didn't really happen because people decided privacy concerns were more important than giving a shit about other people (as i've said, it's FAR from perfect here too). However, tracing and testing here has relied upon a truly competent epidemiology and testing system. I don't know how "mandatory" it has been here, really... i suspect it's just relied upon the fact that people give a shit about their own health and there's still a catholic hangover of giving a shit about other people to a certain degree.

I do think you need to stop giving quite so much responsibility to the tories. That's a great fucking cop out that all the selfish cunts driving this epidemic will happily go with, mate. Can't ever be "MY" fault: it's the others, it's the government, it's the EU, it's immigrants... blah fucking blah... I'll still go down the shops without a mask because it's "my right".

No right, selfish cunts are selfish cunts. But a basic function of a government is to counter people's selfishness and act. Like people get selfish all the time. But there's rules in place to stop selfish acts.

Like during the panic buying, the gov just looked on and said well that's terrible as shops ran out of essentials. And yeah the selfish cunts are to blame. But the gov should have brought in a rule that said shops can only sell so many bog rolls per person. To not expect this is letting the gov off the hook.

Seems to me like you're falling a bit for the government spin of blaming various groups. Like now they're blaming young people for the recent outbreak even though it's been heavily linked to gov policy, before that it was immigrants, before that it was selfish poor BAME people being packed in to cramped houses etc. These narratives, often created round a table by a group of ministers like Cummings, are designed to deflect and distract.

This article while absolving individuals of blame (which I don't agree with) talks about behavioural science. It's interesting. Covid-idiots aren't so much to blame for the spread, rather poor people being forced back to work aka gov policy

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ment-greek

On another day, Sid, you'd be railing against a government introducing draconian measures.

As for me falling for the government spin... I'm not aware of the government spin if there is any. Don't forget that i don't live in the UK. With regards to the clear indication that younger people are currently driving the increasing numbers, i know for a fact that the data support this in Italy. Since July, the median age for a positive covid test has gone down from 61 to 32 currently. There are suggestions, though, that this might just be down to more widespread testing and testing of people coming back into the country at airports, etc. One of the main issues with this pandemic is that it has always been being driven more by asymptomatic carriers than the knowingly unwell. That's why mask wearing is crucial.

I completely agree that all governments have a fundamental duty to protect their public and also to make it as easy as possible for the public to help themselves. Going on anecdotal evidence I've heard from friends and colleagues in the UK (from various different places there), it seems that ignoring of the mask-wearing rules in shops is rife and the concept of distancing has gone out of the window. These are limited observations and they are not first hand so i do appreciate that I could be way off the mark.

Out of interest, Sid. Do you wear a mask at all?

[FuB]

That’s an excellent t video, FuB, thanks for linking it. The guy really made a great effort to look into the facts. It’s a shame actual journalists rarely make the same effort.

The attacks on WHO are very similar to the techniques the new right used against the EU. They realized that you can get away with saying anything at all about these international organizations, because people don’t understand them, the movies give you the impression that they’re really powerful when they’re anything but. The organizations are usually just civil servants, they don’t have the same PR teams and newspapers and news channels ready to obey orders, so it’s a very lopsided fight.

I should make clear that he's an ex-BBC/New Scientist/Lancet/Guardian/Telegraph/Independant journalist of quite some standing : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Had ... ournalist)

...people don't understand them: well, yes, but the bigger issue is that people don't care to fact check things. They don't really have the interest or intellect to bother or know how to do so. This is the real crime against humanity because a better education system that cared about teaching rational thought and attention to detail might have had a chance of preventing this.

People don't have time to fact check, Fub. I've got a 10 month old and some days I don't even have time to eat an actual meal. It's the gov's job to get the message across. They have the finances, outreach, power etc to reach virtually every person in the UK.

The ignorant people that don't fact check... Are in government. They have access to the greatest medical minds, top scientists, the latest data - I don't, but they do - and the gov ignored em and their pleas. They thought it was like the flu. So then we had a rushed lockdown and the rest is history.

And yeah no gov can handle it perfectly but there's a vast difference between 60k + dead in the UK and 24 in New Zealand

I don't have a problem with people not having time to fact check because they are too busy to. I do have a problem with people instead having time to read, search out and pass on disinformation, conspiracy theories and total bullshit to other bellends who don't have time to fact check anything but plenty time to go on youtube, facebook and twitter for their worldview.

I'm guessing you didn't bother to watch that video and i'd again urge you to, notwithstanding you being busy with a child. I agree that governments should fact check... that video shows that they often wantonly do not. It also indicates how, whilst the WHO definitely gave out some confused messages, the information was available.